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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobtColton View Post
    Ken, I am a "newbie" to Grand Design Fifth Wheel RVing. Just bought a Reflections 150 Series 295 and had an Inline Surge Protector installed before I got it. I have a Westinghouse iGen 4500 DF which has a floating neutral. When I tried to run my RV off the 30amp outlet the surge protector said it had reverse polarity. Will your special "Ground-Neutral Bond" jumper cable plug solve the problem so I can power the RV from the 30 amp outlet and should I drive in a grounding rod and attach it to the ground lug on the generator?
    What kind of Inline Surge Protector is installed?

    I would think that the "Ground-Neutral Bond" jumper cable plug will fix the problem. Doing some voltage checks like ground to ground to make sure the rv is safe couldn't hurt. The surge protector should protect the rv from damage.
    KEN
    Backpacker and tent camper all my life, including BSA as a kid and adult.
    Motorcycle trips across the USA with a tent - 1978 to Present.
    02-10-2005 - 2002 F350 SWD PSD and 2003 Citation 10'8S mostly for Crater Lake Ski Patrol.
    10-29-2015 - 2016 Grand Design 380TH. It's HUGE compared to a camper.
    10-19-2018 - traded truck for a 2016 Ram 3500 DRW Laramie CC 4 X 4 Long Box.
    03-16-2019 - Traded Momentum for a New 2018 374TH-R Solitude
    FULL TIME RV'er Nov 2021

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roll With The Changes View Post
    My question is about the floating neutral on a portable generator... With a twist...

    My generator has a floating neutral and the Progressive Industries EMS sees that as an open ground and locks out. The common fix is to bond the neutral and ground at the generator. All fixed. No problem. Except...

    I'm guessing that all of the discussions about this assume that the generator is sitting on the ground. Mine is mounted on the RV. Which means that when I bond the generator, I'm also bonding the RV chassis. It seems that would introduce AC on the chassis which is also the ground for all the DC circuits. Not to mention the possibility of multiple bonding points (code violations).

    On board generators handle this somehow but I don't know how.

    Am I missing something or just over thinking?
    Okay, I noticed that no one addressed your concern about having the generator in the RV, thus it's grounded to the RV.

    First, most generator/inverters are internally grounded. That means all the grounds go to a single point, usually on the frame. They also usually have protections that prevent a "hot chassis".

    Second, the neutral bond does not direct voltage to the chassis ground. For all in intents and purposes, the neutral does not carry voltage for a standard 110 vac line (like in your stix-n-brix house). Now, move to 230 vac, and the "neutral line now carries 110 vac. So, for the generator, all you are doing, with the bonded neutral, is tying the ground and neutral together, "fooling" the EMS into thinking it's connected to a power company 110 vac source.

    Some background: generators leave the neutral "floating", meaning not tied to anything. The EMS sees that it cannot "test" the neutral line because there is no end point. When you tie the neutral with ground, via a bonded neutral plug (as shown in previous posts), you are giving the neutral an end point, thus the EMS things all is good.

    EDIT: the 230 vac example is not really how 230 vac is wired, you have hot, hot, neutral, ground. It was an poor example that hopefully got the image across.

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    Last edited by MoonShadow_1911; 12-30-2021 at 04:48 PM.
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow_1911 View Post
    Okay, I noticed that no one addressed your concern about having the generator in the RV, thus it's grounded to the RV.

    First, most generator/inverters are internally grounded. That means all the grounds go to a single point, usually on the frame. They also usually have protections that prevent a "hot chassis".

    Second, the neutral bond does not direct voltage to the chassis ground. For all in intents and purposes, the neutral does not carry voltage for a standard 110 vac line (like in your stix-n-brix house). Now, move to 230 vac, and the "neutral line now carries 110 vac. So, for the generator, all you are doing, with the bonded neutral, is tying the ground and neutral together, "fooling" the EMS into thinking it's connected to a power company 110 vac source.

    Some background: generators leave the neutral "floating", meaning not tied to anything. The EMS sees that it cannot "test" the neutral line because there is no end point. When you tie the neutral with ground, via a bonded neutral plug (as shown in previous posts), you are giving the neutral an end point, thus the EMS things all is good.

    EDIT: the 230 vac example is not really how 230 vac is wired, you have hot, hot, neutral, ground. It was an poor example that hopefully got the image across.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    The neutral doesn’t even exist on a 240V circuit, and it never changes voltage regardless of what hot leads you are using. It’s always 120V from both hot legs and always carries current except for on a straight 240V system. Bonding it to a grounding system simply places it at the same voltage as the soil or structure under your feet.

    The EMS doesn’t look for an end point on the neutral, it looks for a bond between the neutral and ground which is always present at the power source on any kind of utility power.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
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    SW Indiana

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkwilson View Post
    The neutral doesn’t even exist on a 240V circuit, and it never changes voltage regardless of what hot leads you are using. It’s always 120V from both hot legs and always carries current except for on a straight 240V system. Bonding it to a grounding system simply places it at the same voltage as the soil or structure under your feet.

    The EMS doesn’t look for an end point on the neutral, it looks for a bond between the neutral and ground which is always present at the power source on any kind of utility power.
    That's what I get for being an EE hobbiest!

    About three EMS sensing an end point, I was trying to over simplify it, thanks for the corrections!

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow_1911 View Post
    That's what I get for being an EE hobbiest!

    About three EMS sensing an end point, I was trying to over simplify it, thanks for the corrections!

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    Actually some interesting testing stuff happens with EMS and GFCIs. They now detect downstream ground neutral bonds.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
    2014 Reflection 303RLS
    SW Indiana

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkwilson View Post
    Actually some interesting testing stuff happens with EMS and GFCIs. They now detect downstream ground neutral bonds.
    We've hijacked the OP's thread! That is interesting! Do they shutdown if a bonded neutral is detected?

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow_1911 View Post
    We've hijacked the OP's thread! That is interesting! Do they shutdown if a bonded neutral is detected?

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    Yes. Called downstream detection some EMS can even detect an open neutral in the RV.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
    2014 Reflection 303RLS
    SW Indiana

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkwilson View Post
    Yes. Called downstream detection some EMS can even detect an open neutral in the RV.
    Awesome information to know. I guess my PowerWatchDog is old enough to not do that. I purchased it in early 2021.

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    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow_1911 View Post
    Awesome information to know. I guess my PowerWatchDog is old enough to not do that. I purchased it in early 2021.

    Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk
    The Watchdog EPO has it.
    John & Kathy
    2014 F250 Lariat FX4 6.2L SBCC
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkwilson View Post
    The Watchdog EPO has it.
    Interesting. I've got a bonded neutral plug on my Champion 3400 Dual Fuel inverter generator, and the Watchdog is just fine with it. Huh, thanks!

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    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

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