buying a 397th real soon

[CX500T]

So I'm pretty much a heretic here, but the real limit (engineering limit, not holy yellow sticker limit) you will push is the weight on tires.

I have a 397TH. I tow it with both of the following:
1999 F-250 2WD Diesel
Super Cab, Short Box
6 Speed Manual, 3.73 gears
B&W Slider Hitch
225/70R19.5 tires.. THIS IS THE IMPORTANT NON STOCK PART, as you cannot get 16" tires in load range G anymore, and E is too little tire for the 397s pin weight.
(250 and 350 SRW that year are same axle, brakes and in my case springs, a heavy 250 is just a "avoid insane tax on 1 ton and above" deal in South Carolina)

2022 F-450
Crew Cab Long Box
6.7 Diesel, 10 speed, 4.30 gears
B&W Puck Hitch

When towing with the 250, I put everything heavy in the garage, no/little water in the tanks, and as little in the bed of the truck as possible. I am still in CG, Tire Limits, Pin weight limits, etc but I do have to be careful where I load stuff and how much stuff I take total.

450, pretty much just keep liquid loads to a minimum but not afraid to do the last 100-200 into a track with full water, or a bunch of stuff in the bed.

Knowing HOW the numbers are derived and actual engineering limits gives me the peace of mind I need with either. I do prefer the 450 for long range trips or bad winds.

I have had people go "harrumph, my 350 DRW has a greater capacity than your 450" (obnoxious disciples of the holy yellow sticker) without knowing where the numbers come from.

(FWIW, my 250 is registered for the same GVWR as my 450, and the state was OK with seeing the components being the same between the 250 and 350 to register as such)

[xrated]

So I'm pretty much a heretic here, but the real limit (engineering limit, not holy yellow sticker limit) you will push is the weight on tires.

I have a 397TH. I tow it with both of the following:
1999 F-250 2WD Diesel
Super Cab, Short Box
6 Speed Manual, 3.73 gears
B&W Slider Hitch
225/70R19.5 tires.. THIS IS THE IMPORTANT NON STOCK PART, as you cannot get 16" tires in load range G anymore, and E is too little tire for the 397s pin weight.
(250 and 350 SRW that year are same axle, brakes and in my case springs, a heavy 250 is just a "avoid insane tax on 1 ton and above" deal in South Carolina)

2022 F-450
Crew Cab Long Box
6.7 Diesel, 10 speed, 4.30 gears
B&W Puck Hitch

When towing with the 250, I put everything heavy in the garage, no/little water in the tanks, and as little in the bed of the truck as possible. I am still in CG, Tire Limits, Pin weight limits, etc but I do have to be careful where I load stuff and how much stuff I take total.

450, pretty much just keep liquid loads to a minimum but not afraid to do the last 100-200 into a track with full water, or a bunch of stuff in the bed.

Knowing HOW the numbers are derived and actual engineering limits gives me the peace of mind I need with either. I do prefer the 450 for long range trips or bad winds.

I have had people go "harrumph, my 350 DRW has a greater capacity than your 450" (obnoxious disciples of the holy yellow sticker) without knowing where the numbers come from.

(FWIW, my 250 is registered for the same GVWR as my 450, and the state was OK with seeing the components being the same between the 250 and 350 to register as such)

You can spin it any way you want, but the bottom line is this. In the event of an accident and an ensuing civil lawsuit against you, the F250 will officially be over the GVWR limits as determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle. It is also likely that the RAWR is being exceeded if it is stock. The only way to change the official GVWR numbers that was assigned by Ford Motor Co. is through an authorized, licensed and certified upfitter, and they are required by law to place a new data sticker on the vehicle after it is certified to a new/different weight rating. You, adding heavy duty anything to the truck does not change the official weight ratings, and that is what the lawyers would go by in a civil trial. Let's hope that you never find that out.

[CX500T]

Or you know, a professional engineering analysis of the components, their ratings and such.

I do love when I see people with aftermarket lifted DRWs quote regs they can't produce to me.

Oh, I was an engineer at a Ford Tier 1 supplier when the first gen Super Duty was developed. I can go point out components I designed on the truck.

As i stated, if you load it right, the only component you will be over on is the tires.

Is it ideal? No. But the same people that tell you you will be sued, insurance won't cover, can never point to a single case of that.

Pretty much every heavy haul (was around many when I worked in the oil field) exceeds the "yellow sticker capacity " of the class 8 rigs they are pulled with too.

Guess I shouldn't have approved those either as the engineering director. Because somebody on the internet thinks X will MUST happen.

Again, I pull my 397 with the two extremes of pickups that can. Sometimes the better maneuverability of the 250 is needed.

Please quote one court case where a non commercial hauler was charged as you describe. Im talking 300 pounds over on a 250 class payload. Not a 397 on a Ranger.

Oh, by the way, my 250 is registered with Wyoming as a 14K gross and 10k GAWR truck.

Because I provided said engineering data to the DMV.

[huntindog]

Or you know, a professional engineering analysis of the components, their ratings and such.

I do love when I see people with aftermarket lifted DRWs quote regs they can't produce to me.

Oh, I was an engineer at a Ford Tier 1 supplier when the first gen Super Duty was developed. I can go point out components I designed on the truck.

As i stated, if you load it right, the only component you will be over on is the tires.

Is it ideal? No. But the same people that tell you you will be sued, insurance won't cover, can never point to a single case of that.

Pretty much every heavy haul (was around many when I worked in the oil field) exceeds the "yellow sticker capacity " of the class 8 rigs they are pulled with too.

Guess I shouldn't have approved those either as the engineering director. Because somebody on the internet thinks X will MUST happen.

Again, I pull my 397 with the two extremes of pickups that can. Sometimes the better maneuverability of the 250 is needed.

Please quote one court case where a non commercial hauler was charged as you describe. Im talking 300 pounds over on a 250 class payload. Not a 397 on a Ranger.

Oh, by the way, my 250 is registered with Wyoming as a 14K gross and 10k GAWR truck.

Because I provided said engineering data to the DMV.

I highly doubt that any DMV has anyone working there that has any idea just what data you are supossedly giving them.... Now many DMVs will register your truck for any weight you are willing to pay for. Whether it is safe or not, it is not their responsibility to sign off on whatever a truck owner has done to "make" their truck safe/capable for the registered weight they are paying for... That responsibility rests SOLELY on the owner.

[CX500T]

Produced sterling engineering literature with axle capacity.

Showed brakes were same part number and operated at same pressure and swept area as a 350DRW.

Also did the brake energy calculations for a panic stop from 85, and sustained breaking down a 7% grade, with and without engine brakes factored in.

Frame was same as a 350 DRW excludung second stage spring mounts. So frame strength calculations were factored in.

You know. The same stuff I used to show to make them produce permits to move 100Ton plus oilfield equipment down the highway.


But hey, I didnt consult the tow police on a forum.

I just asked what I needed to do to make X load legal on Y truck that I already owned.

I knew it would do it before asking and brought the data I thought they would want based off my experience getting various load permits, to include some "permanently permitted" specialty rigs.

[xrated]

Produced sterling engineering literature with axle capacity.

Showed brakes were same part number and operated at same pressure and swept area as a 350DRW.

Also did the brake energy calculations for a panic stop from 85, and sustained breaking down a 7% grade, with and without engine brakes factored in.

Frame was same as a 350 DRW excludung second stage spring mounts. So frame strength calculations were factored in.

You know. The same stuff I used to show to make them produce permits to move 100Ton plus oilfield equipment down the highway.


But hey, I didnt consult the tow police on a forum.

I just asked what I needed to do to make X load legal on Y truck that I already owned.

I knew it would do it before asking and brought the data I thought they would want based off my experience getting various load permits, to include some "permanently permitted" specialty rigs.

Like I told you in post #43......the truck's GVWR hasn't changed since Ford determined what it would be in 1999....or whatever year the truck is....unless the work was done by a certified and licensed upfitter.

[CX500T]

Please quote the relevant section of Federal DOT or FmCSA code that states that.

"Licensed upfitter" isnt defined in any federal motor carrier regulation I'm familiar with.

I am familiar with the updated yellow stickers they do apply (wife's 4runner had one for the weight change from leather seat covers) but from my understanding that's more liability insurance driven.

If you saw how we do aircraft performance calculations for takeoff, climb and landing im pretty sure you would have a coronary.

[xrated]

Here is an article for you to read....take it however you may...
https://fifthwheelst.com/altering_ve...ification.html

And another, more in depth article...
https://landscape-business.com/impli...vwr-and-gawrs/

[pilotpip]

Please quote the relevant section of Federal DOT or FmCSA code that states that.

If you saw how we do aircraft performance calculations for takeoff, climb and landing im pretty sure you would have a coronary.

Average weight programs at the airlines are closely monitored, and actually quite accurate. Apples and oranges comparison.

Even in the corporate aviation world, the plane I currently fly would fly over its certified max takeoff weight. If I did that, and something happened, my career would be over (assuming I survived) and my company would be opened up to potentially millions of dollars in liability for whatever gets damaged as I go off the end of the runway.

The burden of proof in a civil court is on the defendant, and in our litigious society, nobody's gonna care about your engineering data. They're going to see that you just plowed a $200k+ rig into someone who's now suing you, and you're going to be paying them.

[CX500T]

Closely monitored. Yeah. Like it just went up a 20 pounds overnight. And is still woefully inaccurate depending on where you are flying from.

I can tell you when I fly out of New Orleans or Houston with a full cabin in a 321 I get a scratchpad "check gross weight" message more often than I don't. I'm out on medical leave at the moment but I'm pretty sure thats a large mismatch between what the Bus weighs (via ADC/AOA calculations in the FMGC/MCDU) and whatcthe WDR says it weighs.

I do know that I don't normally use TOGA power for takeoff as a Flex (Derate/assumed temp) is the standard but I will say a full boat of large people will have me telling the F/O to set toga.

That said pre airlines I did lots of overweight/ oversize load engineering for BakerHughes (and BJ pre merger) due to my background with automotive production and testing.

I've never said the 250 was ideal. What i have said is it can safely be done if you know the weights and make sure your tires can handle it because those are usually the component that maxes out first in a SRW truck.