1/2 ton 3/4 ton

[Roll With The Changes]

Apparently my thread about trailer weights stirred up some discussion about my tow vehicle. So I thought I would start a new thread about that and get it all out there.

First the disclaimers: This is my experience only and I do not recommend that this be taken as the final truth.

When I decided to buy the first fifth wheel I new I needed a new truck. I didn't know what fifth wheel I was going to buy, but if I didn't have a truck to pull it, I couldn't move quick on the Craig's list trailer is was going to find, so I bought the truck first. I started the debate in my head that you are all familiar with... 2500? 3500? Dually? Back and forth for weeks. You know the drill. Dually would be best but who wants that for a daily driver right?

So I started looking at 3500 SRW as a compromise. We'll, all three were in the same brochure at the dealership so it's easy to compare. The more I looked at the 2500 and 3500 the more they looked the same. I don't remember the exact numbers anymore; all I have now is the door sticker on my truck but the brochure showed identical numbers for both with three exceptions. Payload, tow capacity and curb weight. Payload was 800 to 1000 pounds heavier on the 3500 but... Curb weight was twenty pounds heavier and tow capacity was 20 pounds lower!

Then I couldn't resist. If these trucks are so much different, how can the numbers be so much the same? So I looked deeper. Same engine. Same transmission. Same driveshaft. Same wheels/tires. Maybe the rear axle is different. Then I looked up part numbers. The same part numbers came back for: brake pads, rotors, outer bearings, ring gear, pinion shaft. I looked and looked. The only difference I could find between these two trucks was an extra leaf in the rear spring pack. Twenty pounds higher curb weight and twenty pounds lower towing capacity. (GCWR was the same for both trucks). Oh and a $2500 different price tag. I figured I could put air bags on it later if I needed too.... Decision made.

Again, I know nothing about any other trucks, but I am convinced that in 2015 the GM 2500 and 3500 trucks are identical except for the springs. Dual rear wheels is a totally different animal. This is just my story.

[MidwestCamper]

Apparently my thread about trailer weights stirred up some discussion about my tow vehicle. So I thought I would start a new thread about that and get it all out there.

First the disclaimers: This is my experience only and I do not recommend that this be taken as the final truth.

When I decided to buy the first fifth wheel I new I needed a new truck. I didn't know what fifth wheel I was going to buy, but if I didn't have a truck to pull it, I couldn't move quick on the Craig's list trailer is was going to find, so I bought the truck first. I started the debate in my head that you are all familiar with... 2500? 3500? Dually? Back and forth for weeks. You know the drill. Dually would be best but who wants that for a daily driver right?

So I started looking at 3500 SRW as a compromise. We'll, all three were in the same brochure at the dealership so it's easy to compare. The more I looked at the 2500 and 3500 the more they looked the same. I don't remember the exact numbers anymore; all I have now is the door sticker on my truck but the brochure showed identical numbers for both with three exceptions. Payload, tow capacity and curb weight. Payload was 800 to 1000 pounds heavier on the 3500 but... Curb weight was twenty pounds heavier and tow capacity was 20 pounds lower!

Then I couldn't resist. If these trucks are so much different, how can the numbers be so much the same? So I looked deeper. Same engine. Same transmission. Same driveshaft. Same wheels/tires. Maybe the rear axle is different. Then I looked up part numbers. The same part numbers came back for: brake pads, rotors, outer bearings, ring gear, pinion shaft. I looked and looked. The only difference I could find between these two trucks was an extra leaf in the rear spring pack. Twenty pounds higher curb weight and twenty pounds lower towing capacity. (GCWR was the same for both trucks). Oh and a $2500 different price tag. I figured I could put air bags on it later if I needed too.... Decision made.

Again, I know nothing about any other trucks, but I am convinced that in 2015 the GM 2500 and 3500 trucks are identical except for the springs. Dual rear wheels is a totally different animal. This is just my story.

First the disclaimers: This is my experience only and I do not recommend that this be taken as the final truth.

This sums this up very well. First your rear axle and spring packs are different. Secondly you may want to take the time to look up part numbers on the entire cooling system, transmission cooler, and other thermal components. Don't forget the calibration part numbers. This subject gets tossed around all the time and its the 3/4 ton guys that insist their trucks are the same as a one ton. While they may use a high percentage of parts, they are not the same since each model must be able to pass SAE tests at GCVWR. In the one ton case, the truck is modeled, to handle a higher GCVWR so some components such as bearings, wheels, cooling system components, suspension components, calibrations for different weight classes, and much more are designed for the higher loads then ran through durability tests then finalized to pass SAE tests. GM is more straight forward where Ford based on several packages (Even the F150 HDPP can tow and haul more than some F250s) can result in some lower level F350 trucks having a lower payload and GCVWR of the F250 but you can be sure all these vehicles are designed to haul and tow what is listed on the door jamb labels.

[backtrack2015]

It's a very familiar story that is repeated many times here. The trick to the story, as far as I am concerned, is keeping to the equivalent 3500 payload ratings. There are plenty of folks around with 2500/250 trucks that use this justification but then exceed the payload ratings of the equivalent SRW 3500/350.

[bertschb]

I figured I could put air bags on it later if I needed too.... Decision made.

As long as you're happy with your decision, that's all that matters!

[Roll With The Changes]

Midwest Camper,

My disclaimer simply means that I won't let myself be quoted overriding a manufacturer's door sticker and that what I am saying applies only to my specific truck. I simply meant that I am not saying that all 3/4's are the same as all 1 tons. We all make decisions wether or not to take risks, based on the information that we have at hand. I did my research on a specific vehicle and I am simply sharing what I found.

You mentioned that my rear axle and springs are different. I stated that the springs are different. The axle is a different matter. The rear axle is an assembly consisting of housing, shafts, bearings, brakes etc. That is why I looked up the part numbers that I did. With so many parts being identical, it would not make financial sense for GM to put all of those parts into a different housing. Also, I am confident that the axle assembly would weigh substantially more but that is not the case based on the curb weights of the two vehicles. Further, the rear axle in a truck has two main functions: It supports the load against gravity and it applies torque to the wheels. The spring pack, however only supports the load against gravity. Since the GCWR of both trucks is the same, we can assume the components subject to torque are the same. The spring would need to be changed to support a heavier load. Back to my disclaimer: my conclusion from my research.

You mentioned "passing the SAE tests". I assume you are referring to SAE 2807. This is not mandated by any regulatory body and if memory serves, GM had not adopted that standard in 2015. But just to be fair, GM's own testing procedure that year, claimed the same GCWR for both the 2500 and the 3500. That would imply that all of the cooling components that you mentioned are able to perform comparably in both trucks. That would also include the wheel bearings and other drive line components that I stated were identical.

Backtrack2015,
You are absolutely correct. This is a story that is repeated here (and many other places) many times. It reminds me of the "Ford/Chevy" debate. Everybody has an opinion, but most of those in the debate are not able to present a substantive argument for why they are right. The fact is, that the door sticker doesn't carry the load or pull the trailer. The parts do. If the parts can be shown to be the same, doesn't that make it the same truck? And I completely agree that if you exceed the ratings of the 3500/350 that's no good.

bertschb,
You are also absolutely correct. I am happy with my decision; as everyone should be with their own decisions. The purpose of forums like this is to share knowledge and experience. We are not required nor should we all agree with the way somebody else might do something. This is just my knowledge and experience.

[Bamaman]

Many in the know state that manufacturer's weight specs. are somewhat conservative--maybe as much as 20%. That means they're giving some leeway for overload conditions. I don't know if it's the truth, but it does sound reasonable.

[MidwestCamper]

Many in the know state that manufacturer's weight specs. are somewhat conservative--maybe as much as 20%. That means they're giving some leeway for overload conditions. I don't know if it's the truth, but it does sound reasonable.

All components have a safety factor higher than 1. So to overload a 2500 like some folks like to do may hold up right up to the point of failure. Its based on exposure and duty cycle. I work in this business and try to convince folks that their 2500 labels are not rigged where they can search on a few parts and conclude they own a 3500. Fact is there are many decisions that goes into this based cost of components and volume. Folks need to understand that when a truck is specified to be at a lower payload and towing, each and every part that would be overbuilt cost millions of dollars, not on one truck but on one single part for all trucks produced.
Trucks may look the same where there are some visible differences and some that are not, based on the capability of the vehicle. Some differences are invisible to the customer.
For instance, I just purchased an SUV for the wife which I had a factory hitch added for some light duty stuff. The vehicle looks identical to the same vehicle with factory tow package but the factory hitch documents specify a 1000lb tow limit. If this same vehicle was ordered with the tow package (same hitch, same part number), the tow limit is 3500lbs. The difference? A larger capacity trans cooler with thermostatically controlled bypass, a larger capacity electric fan and a tow haul button with supporting engine and transmission software. But darn its the same engine, trans, rear suspension, front springs, shocks, tires, wheels, brake pads, rotors, master cylinder, half shafts, and so on. I could compare parts for weeks. Wouldn't it had been cheaper just to throw the thermal stuff on for free rather than to build two different versions? No it wouldn't. If I towed 3500lbs for very long, under rigid conditions, I would be buying a transmission and shortening the life of the engine.

[mountainman229]

All components have a safety factor higher than 1. So to overload a 2500 like some folks like to do may hold up right up to the point of failure. Its based on exposure and duty cycle. I work in this business and try to convince folks that their 2500 labels are not rigged where they can search on a few parts and conclude they own a 3500. Fact is there are many decisions that goes into this based cost of components and volume. Folks need to understand that when a truck is specified to be at a lower payload and towing, each and every part that would be overbuilt cost millions of dollars, not on one truck but on one single part for all trucks produced.
Trucks may look the same where there are some visible differences and some that are not, based on the capability of the vehicle. Some differences are invisible to the customer.
For instance, I just purchased an SUV for the wife which I had a factory hitch added for some light duty stuff. The vehicle looks identical to the same vehicle with factory tow package but the factory hitch documents specify a 1000lb tow limit. If this same vehicle was ordered with the tow package (same hitch, same part number), the tow limit is 3500lbs. The difference? A larger capacity trans cooler with thermostatically controlled bypass, a larger capacity electric fan and a tow haul button with supporting engine and transmission software. But darn its the same engine, trans, rear suspension, front springs, shocks, tires, wheels, brake pads, rotors, master cylinder, half shafts, and so on. I could compare parts for weeks. Wouldn't it had been cheaper just to throw the thermal stuff on for free rather than to build two different versions? No it wouldn't. If I towed 3500lbs for very long, under rigid conditions, I would be buying a transmission and shortening the life of the engine.

Sounds to me like roll with the changes was speaking on actual specs of vehicles and not what they “visibly” look like. Looking at a brochure WRITTEN by GM, parts match up, and there’s a small difference between both trucks. While I don’t work in the industry (which by the way, anyone can be anything on the internet) you were specifically speaking on an SUV that you added a factory hitch on something that wasn’t equipped to handle it, VS one that came with it. What roll with the changes is speaking about is 2 vehicles that came off the lot EXACTLY the same. So making a good argument is great if you’re talking apples to apples but you are making an example that’s not even the same here. My only other question here is then what’s got you so invested in proving your point so inaccurately?

[bertschb]

These threads always seem to devolve into the same arguments.

People who want the most stable ride, the best climbing and braking performance, the highest payload ratings, the highest safety margins, the lowest possibility of breaking components and the least stressful towing experience opt for modern DRW diesel trucks. As your concern for these things goes down, you are more likely to choose a truck with lower tow/payload ratings and less power. People who tow 15,000lb trailers with 3/4 ton trucks just aren't as worried about the same things that people who have DRW trucks are.

My Solitude is long, tall and heavy at 16,000lbs. I was not comfortable towing it with my 3500 SRW truck so I bought a DRW. Now I'm comfortable. Others would have no problem towing it with a SRW 1 ton or even a 3/4 ton truck. Heck, maybe even a 1/2 ton. Everybody has different levels of risk taking/comfort when towing. Buy whatever you're comfortable with!

The only thing I would ask is if you are exceeding the tow/payload ratings of your truck, don't try to justify it by saying your truck is just as good as the truck that would tow your RV without exceeding the ratings because it's not. You may have great reasons for having an "undersized" truck. Maybe you don't want to spend the money to get something more capable. Maybe you're concerned about the ride. Maybe it won't fit in your garage (like me). Maybe you want something more nimble in parking lots (like me). Maybe you want something that gets better mileage (like me). There are a lot of reasons for having a less capable tow vehicle. Don't try to justify it by saying it tows just as good as xxxxxx. Just own it.

[Jerryr]

So Chevy put one extra spring, changed badge and labels from 2500 to 3500 and charged $2,500 more? I’m not convinced that’s the case.