1/2 ton 3/4 ton

[RVRunners]

These threads always seem to devolve into the same arguments.

People who want the most stable ride, the best climbing and braking performance, the highest payload ratings, the highest safety margins, the lowest possibility of breaking components and the least stressful towing experience opt for modern DRW diesel trucks. As your concern for these things goes down, you are more likely to choose a truck with lower tow/payload ratings and less power. People who tow 15,000lb trailers with 3/4 ton trucks just aren't as worried about the same things that people who have DRW trucks are.

My Solitude is long, tall and heavy at 16,000lbs. I was not comfortable towing it with my 3500 SRW truck so I bought a DRW. Now I'm comfortable. Others would have no problem towing it with a SRW 1 ton or even a 3/4 ton truck. Heck, maybe even a 1/2 ton. Everybody has different levels of risk taking/comfort when towing. Buy whatever you're comfortable with!

The only thing I would ask is if you are exceeding the tow/payload ratings of your truck, don't try to justify it by saying your truck is just as good as the truck that would tow your RV without exceeding the ratings because it's not. You may have great reasons for having an "undersized" truck. Maybe you don't want to spend the money to get something more capable. Maybe you're concerned about the ride. Maybe it won't fit in your garage (like me). Maybe you want something more nimble in parking lots (like me). Maybe you want something that gets better mileage (like me). There are a lot of reasons for having a less capable tow vehicle. Don't try to justify it by saying it tows just as good as xxxxxx. Just own it.

This sums it up well. We own F-250’s, F-350 SRW’s and F-350 DRW’s in our construction business and they are different. At least in the Fords, the power train is the same on F-250 through F-450 with other components such as chassis components, brakes, etc. being different. In my opinion it is wise to weigh your rig at the CAT scale and make sure you are within the ratings of the truck on payload, RAWR, etc. If the unthinkable happens on the interstate and there is an investigation/legal action it is likely that these things will be examined at that time.

[Roll With The Changes]

...and so the debate continues...

Lots of opinions, but let's not be so judgemental. This thread is a spinnoff of another thread titled "weight not as claimed?". Feel free to read that one to catch up. The reason I started that thread is that the scale showed that I was approaching the limits of the 3500SRW. Turned out to be a bad scale reading but the point is I'm not one of those "3/4 ton guys that think their truck can do anything."

Now let's get back on track.

The original post compares the 2015 2500 to the 3500SRW. I clearly stated that DRW is a totally different animal, so let's not talk about DRW and confuse things.

There continues to be talk of cooling capacity and now we're talking about transmission line pressures and shift points. What is missing from all those statements is that GCWR is the same for both vehicles. That means that all of the things that turn and shift and cool are being tested to the same standard under the same conditions. It doesn't matter if the line pressure is higher in the 3500. The 2500 performs the same in the test. I'll say it again. The GM published GCWR is the same in bother vehicles...

My original statement was that the only difference between those specific vehicles is the spring pack because all the other ratings are the same. Somebody said "show me the part numbers. All of them". So I'll turn it around. Somebody show me one thing that definitively makes these trucks fundamentally different. It's not that I can't be convinced; I absolutely have an open mind about it, but in all the discussions I've had about this, in forums and in person, nobody has brought up one single thing that demonstrates an actual difference.

As I said earlier, everyone has an opinion but rarely does anyone bring a substantive argument to make their point. It usually reverts to "I work in the industry" or "I work for a manufacturer." We'll, I am an aerospace engineer but that is also irrelevant. If I wasn't involved with the engineering team that put these vehicles together, I'm just as clueless as everyone else.

Here's another thing that most people don't catch on to: GM specifically, but I would guess the other two do as well, published a GCWR in the 25,000 pound range. These are roughly 8000 pound trucks and if you look in the right place, they publish that you can toss about 17000 pounds. Pin weight on a 17000 pound trailer at 20% is 3400 pounds. The 3500SRW can't do that either; even by their own specs. So what does that mean?

...and the debate continues...

[Roll With The Changes]

Bamaman,

Sorry your post got lost in all the noise. You are correct about safety factors being designed in. It is considered standard practice. In civil structures it is typically a factor of three or more; meaning that a bridge is engineered to carry three times the anticipated load. Aerospace structures have a much lower safety factor because weight is so critical. You might see a factor of 1.3 in a non critical part. I have no idea where those numbers would be in the automotive industry, but the loads especially on suspension parts are extremely difficult if not impossible to anticipate so many times parts are designed imperically from performance history of similar parts.

Hope that helps.

[MidwestCamper]

Here is a statement from General Motors from their 2015 Towing Guide. I'll stop here since this is an endless discussion from the 3/4 ton crowd that insists their trucks are 1 ton trucks where they can ignore the door labels and load based on advertised 3500 listings. While this is a general statement the engineering goes far deeper in what these trucks can safely carry and tow. Ignore the labels and carry on.

SERIES In general, a higher series number in a model indicates
a greater load-carrying capacity. In addition, a vehicle with a
higher series number typically has a stronger frame, stiffer
suspension and higher-capacity brakes, increasing the
vehicle’s ability to trailer heavy loads.

[bertschb]

...and I'll stick to my original statement- buy whatever truck you like!

I don't recall ever reading a thread here or anywhere else where a "3/4 ton guy" was talked into getting something with a higher payload rating. Both camps always seem to be pretty firmly entrenched. I know there is no way anybody could talk me into towing my Solitude (or my old Reflection for that matter) with a 3/4 ton truck.

Now the rest of you nice folks can continue the debate

[JColeman]

I am a classic example of a first time 5th wheel owner being given bad advice by a dealer.

So now we own an F250 to pull a 310GK. We had disc brakes installed on the 310 to enhance braking. We put air bags on the truck to level when towing. It works great, pulls like a locomotive, stops faster than any non-disc brake unit and generally suits my needs. We are not full timers and travel pretty light.

...and I will still upgrade to a 350 when finances permit just for the peace of mind that bertschb mentioned.

[pjmjunior]

Please post the brochure where part numbers on the exact same components are listed between 2500 and 3500. Part numbers please. List them all.

Just do a simple search on an OEM parts website and you'll see that most parts fit, in my case, the F-250 and F-350 since these trucks are identical except for the rear spring pack.

[Chiefblueman]

Disclaimer: I in no way encourage anyone to exceed the stickers on their trucks. Furthermore, the vehicles being discussed are GM HD2500 and 3500 SRW of the Duramax LML vintage only.

Since I own a GM HD2500 truck, I have been curious about this debate. I've done some similar poking about as the OP. My findings are similar to his. The brakes, axles, engines, transmissions, drivelines have identical pn's. The GAWR's are the same. The GCVWR's are the same. The curb weights of identically equipped trucks are within a few pounds of each other. This accounts for the extra spring leaf. Is there a different frame in a 3500 that is stronger without adding weight? I have some serious doubts about that. If someone has any solid info regarding this, I'm all ears.
Some speculate about transmission programming and line pressures. What I know about the Allison 1000 6sp transmission is that it is rated for the same max input torque, max input speed, has identical ratios and identical fluid capacities between 2500 and 3500. Neither the transmission nor the engine can differentiate between load placement of equal amounts. Radiators and transmission coolers are identical between the two. The engines are rated equally at identical parameters. Same fuel, injectors, intercoolers, fuel pumps ad nauseum.
Trying to determine the differences through pricing seems futile. Pricing is dependent on too many factors. Just a larger number on the door can command a higher price. A low demand can reduce it.


I'm curious what the real difference is, as in parts, structure, programming, et al. Or is it really mostly a helper spring and a shiny 3500 on the door?

I was in the electrical industry for over 40 years, I surely don't know all the differences between a substation receiving 150kv and one handling 230kv. Reading boilerplate from a manual means little to me, especially when facts, ie: larger brakes, don't bear the statement out. I have seen many PN's that show the similarities, yet nobody seems willing to provide part numbers, hard evidence or even a statement pointing out specifics to show the dissimilarities.

Ford and Ram may do it differently but this thread was about GM to begin with. I agree that a 2500 is not a 3500 SRW by virtue of its heavier spring pack and registered tonnage. I, like the OP, can find no other definitive difference.

To the OP, in your previous thread showing axle weights, you show a rear axle weight of 7500lbs or so. I'm pretty sure that exceeds the axle and tire capacities by 1000lbs with a lightly loaded 300GK. How are you ever going to get 1000+ lbs off the pin?

[boyscout]

I am a classic example of a first time 5th wheel owner being given bad advice by a dealer.

...and I will still upgrade to a 350 when finances permit just for the peace of mind that bertschb mentioned.

I went to buy a 450 and ended up with a 350 SRW short box. The dealer (who had both) sold me on the 350's better fuel economy, smaller truck for parking in malls, slightly lower cost. When we had a lighter Reflection it seemed like I'd made the right choice... it was plenty of truck for it.

IMO the 350 is just enough truck for the 310GK we subsequently bought and I'd prefer a 450 for a handful of reasons. Better non-towing ride is right up there; the 350 is pretty harsh. Better turning radius; the 350 draws comments from experienced people about how wide it turns. Better brakes. Dually; the 350 SRW does feel a *little* pushed-around at times, not really unsafe-feeling but occasionally unnerving. Long box (the auto-slider hitch always occupies most of my truck's bed). And - hopefully, I don't know this for sure - a little less of the bucking-bronco we have when we hit bad bridge transitions or other bumps in the road.

So if I was you I'd save up a bit more and buy a 450. Maybe a bit more truck than we absolutely need for a 310GK, but that's a good feeling IMO.

[Roll With The Changes]

I agree it's time to end the debate but in fairness I should be allowed my summary as well. When I started this thread, I claimed that something was true. I presented specific facts to support that claim. Not once did anyone disagree with the facts that I presented. Nor did anyone present their own specific facts to dispute my claim. The only responses I got we're generalities and unsupported opinions.

Not once did I attempt to shame anyone for decisions that they may or may not have made. I am absolutely certain that I never referred to anyone in the tone of "the one ton guys that insist that nothing less will do."

I never came here to change anyone's mind. I came here for an intelligent technical discussion. I thought that's what we did here.

My mistake.