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  1. #41
    Rolling Along LV Naturist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
    GM is going even a step further and puts a max tongue/pin weight on their sticker now which is awesome. It works out to 15% of the tow limit for the trailer weight but also safely falls within the payload rating of the truck.

    Ya, a LOT of people overburdening their tow vehicles out there. I hope they arrive at their destinations safely! There is also a lot of willful ignorance - but that crowd isn't likely to come here asking for truck advice, they think they already know all they need to know

    This was a screen shot from a video looking at one of the new 2020 2500HD Duramax trucks. It is pretty great what GM is doing Note that the new 2500s have a higher than 10k GVWR which is fantastic as that was always knee capping those vehicles in the past - especially when equipped with the Diesel engines.
    Attachment 23097
    While I do agree that is a step in the right direction, I have an issue with "MAX" anything weight. Reason being, it can be easily misinterpreted resulting in an overloaded truck. To clarify, it can lead a driver to say "I can safely have a pin weight of 2490 LBS, sticker says so..." when he fails to take into consideration that he added a heavy tool box and a 60 GA auxiliary fuel tank. I prefer a rating that simply states the max the truck can weigh overall, and additionally broken down to max front axle weight and rear axle weight. Tell me the max I can weigh and I can figure it out from there, don't tell me my cargo can only weigh XX LBS because without a reference point it can be misunderstood. JMHO...

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  2. #42
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV Naturist View Post
    While I do agree that is a step in the right direction, I have an issue with "MAX" anything weight. Reason being, it can be easily misinterpreted resulting in an overloaded truck. To clarify, it can lead a driver to say "I can safely have a pin weight of 2490 LBS, sticker says so..." when he fails to take into consideration that he added a heavy tool box and a 60 GA auxiliary fuel tank. I prefer a rating that simply states the max the truck can weigh overall, and additionally broken down to max front axle weight and rear axle weight. Tell me the max I can weigh and I can figure it out from there, don't tell me my cargo can only weigh XX LBS because without a reference point it can be misunderstood. JMHO...

    John
    They tell the max pin weight as well as the max cargo weight on that sticker. I think it is perfectly safe to assume gooseneck=fifth wheel in regards to what that sticker is saying for tow weights. If you keep your fifth wheel pin under 2490# for that truck, you are not getting your self in trouble. You still have to keep the total payload under THAT specified number.
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  3. #43
    Site Sponsor Skiddy's Avatar
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    I like the intent, but GM knows better I think.
    Most agree that a safe tongue weight on a TT is 12.5% (somewhere between the minimum of 10% and the maximum of 15% of loaded TT weight on the coupler. The sample sticker uses 10%, 1,450# tongue weight, for a max TT weight of 14,500. The safer amount at 12.5%, to lessen sway, would be somewhere in the just under 12,000 GVWR TT.
    It is a science and the last guy or gal to trust is the one trying to sell you a trailer or a truck.
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  4. #44
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrated View Post
    I really don't see anything to get excited about with that sticker info. Yes, the payload rating is up for a diesel "3/4 T" truck....big deal, no different than buying a 1 Ton truck in the first place. The next issue is the Gooseneck trailer weight rating....16,600 lbs. That number might be OK for a gooseneck EQUIPENT trailer, but a 16,600 lb 5ver is going to be right at the payload capacity 3360 lbs. And how much over payload is the unsuspecting buyer going to be when they add in the weight of their hitch, passenger(s), toolbox full of tools/jacks,etc and everything else that goes in/on the truck? They are playing games to attract more sales......"Hey...look what we did...we got you covered. And trust me, there are many people out there that either are not aware of how to calculate the safe towing numbers for a truck/trailer combination, or they will just simply believe what they read, not knowing there can be a huge difference in the pin weight of a 16,600 lb gooseneck equipment trailer and a 16,600 5th wheel camping trailer!!

    Everyone really just needs to educate themselves on how and why for the towing numbers when they decide to buy a trailer. Like I stated previously, I learned my lesson the hard way and I am thankful that there were many people willing to help me learn and understand what I was trying to achieve. That is one of the primary reasons I am almost always willing to help someone with the numbers if they need and/or want help. Just a pay it forward kind of thing.
    Weight is weight. If the trailer is a 5er or a gooseneck is irrelevant if the weight they are putting in the truck bed is the same. Yes, a gooseneck equipment trailer has more flexibility in how you load it, but at the end of the day, tongue/pin weight is the vertical force on the rear truck axle from the trailer - regardless of what the rest of the trailer is doing weight-wise. People always CAN overload their truck, but this sticker goes a long way in helping people to understand a little more about the capabilities of their truck. And this sticker example was from a 3/4 ton truck, but my understanding is that all of the new GM HDs will have a similar sticker with their VIN specific numbers which helps take some of the mystery out of figuring what options/packages they have and how that will impact their rating. One big question I have seen is people worrying about tongue weight and how it plays with the rest of the available payload, in my mind, this helps considerably there as it says, tongue weight can be upto X. Payload - X = available weight for other stuff. In that same sticker, they do include rear axle, payload, and gvwr ratings for the truck - all very relevant towing data to have in one spot.
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  5. #45
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiddy View Post
    I like the intent, but GM knows better I think.
    Most agree that a safe tongue weight on a TT is 12.5% (somewhere between the minimum of 10% and the maximum of 15% of loaded TT weight on the coupler. The sample sticker uses 10%, 1,450# tongue weight, for a max TT weight of 14,500. The safer amount at 12.5%, to lessen sway, would be somewhere in the just under 12,000 GVWR TT.
    It is a science and the last guy or gal to trust is the one trying to sell you a trailer or a truck.
    And if you read the trailering guide from GM it will also say to use a WDH for trailers over X pounds as well as one with brakes if over Y pounds. Those are just the maxes. I interpret that as a bumper pull can have up to 1450# tongue weight and this truck should be able to safely handle it. That does not mean you have to get your tongue weight that high, or doing so is a good match to your trailer, just it is what the truck is designed to handle up to. GM is responsible for sharing what the truck is designed and tested to handle. You still have to manage your trailer weights accordingly separate from the trucks ratings. I am not advocating that people blindly follow a sticker abdicating all personal responsibility - this simply provides some more guidance for people than was previously available. With some trailers you can easily get up to the 1300-1400# tongue weight range (thinking of @howson and his 315rlts with W/D up front and battery/inverter installation)
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  6. #46
    Site Team xrated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
    Weight is weight. If the trailer is a 5er or a gooseneck is irrelevant if the weight they are putting in the truck bed is the same. Yes, a gooseneck equipment trailer has more flexibility in how you load it, but at the end of the day, tongue/pin weight is the vertical force on the rear truck axle from the trailer - regardless of what the rest of the trailer is doing weight-wise. People always CAN overload their truck, but this sticker goes a long way in helping people to understand a little more about the capabilities of their truck. And this sticker example was from a 3/4 ton truck, but my understanding is that all of the new GM HDs will have a similar sticker with their VIN specific numbers which helps take some of the mystery out of figuring what options/packages they have and how that will impact their rating. One big question I have seen is people worrying about tongue weight and how it plays with the rest of the available payload, in my mind, this helps considerably there as it says, tongue weight can be upto X. Payload - X = available weight for other stuff. In that same sticker, they do include rear axle, payload, and gvwr ratings for the truck - all very relevant towing data to have in one spot.
    And that is the point I'm trying make. An equipment type trailer, with the flexibility in loading position can and will allow you to move the construction equipment/bobcat/small dozer/whatever, more towards the rear of the trailer, thus decreasing the amount of pin weight on the truck. A 5th wheel camping trailer doesn't normally have that flexibility and generally runs 20%+ for the pin weight. So looking at the 16,600 towing capacity on a 5ver camper, would put the pin weight at the number I posted...3320....which you might as well say, it takes the entire payload capacity of the truck and leaves Zero room for the hitch, passengers, toolbox, etc. Take that same weight on an equipment trailer and have the load placed more to the rear and you might end up with 2500 lbs of pin weight. Like I said, it's all a game and an effort to promote more sales of their trucks, but don't try and BS the people about the capabilities of the truck......we already have way too much of that going on at many truck and RV dealers.
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  7. #47
    Site Team xrated's Avatar
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    One of the biggest problems/issues I have seen in my time on RV forums is that people don't educate themselves in the dynamics of towing safely. The sales people at both the RV dealership and at the Tow vehicle dealerships many times know less than the folks they are trying to sell their product to. Combine that with a commission driven paycheck and lots and lots of combo are being put on the road and the owners are fat, dumb, and happy....at least until they start reading forums like this and come to realize that their sales person screwed them over big time. The other issue I see is that many people that are towing heavy trailers simply look at ONE number....the towing capacity. The truck is advertised to tow xx lbs, the trailer they have is 1500 lbs less than the tow rating and they think they are Golden. They don't know or consider the payload capacity, the RAWR, FAWR, GCVWR, Tire load capacity rating, gear ratios, etc. Of course, all of those factors come into play for safe towing and an enjoyable towing experience, but they DON'T know anything about all that "stuff"! Why? Because they were told by a sales person, a neighbor, a co-worker, a relative, whoever......you'll be OK, that is more than enough truck for your trailer........hell, you've got 1500 more lbs of towing capacity than your limit. Never mind that the trailer's weigh has produced a pin weight that is seriously over the payload sticker on the door of the truck, but the towing capacity is OK, so they are good to go....at least in their minds. I'm not sure what the answer is to help educate the towing public, but in my opinion, the G.M. tag doesn't do a damn thing to help it.
    2016 F350 CrewCab Dually
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  8. #48
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrated View Post
    And that is the point I'm trying make. An equipment type trailer, with the flexibility in loading position can and will allow you to move the construction equipment/bobcat/small dozer/whatever, more towards the rear of the trailer, thus decreasing the amount of pin weight on the truck. A 5th wheel camping trailer doesn't normally have that flexibility and generally runs 20%+ for the pin weight. So looking at the 16,600 towing capacity on a 5ver camper, would put the pin weight at the number I posted...3320....which you might as well say, it takes the entire payload capacity of the truck and leaves Zero room for the hitch, passengers, toolbox, etc. Take that same weight on an equipment trailer and have the load placed more to the rear and you might end up with 2500 lbs of pin weight. Like I said, it's all a game and an effort to promote more sales of their trucks, but don't try and BS the people about the capabilities of the truck......we already have way too much of that going on at many truck and RV dealers.
    I guess our disagreement is because I do not view all of the other ratings as optional. They are all max weights for the respective component. They must all be observed and respected. You cannot say "my trailer is 16600 or less and therefore I am ignoring the rest." If you have a fifth wheel and want to stick with the 20% rule, than that means for this given truck, your max trailer weight would be 12500 for a fifth wheel. The truck is rated for more TRAILER, but not for more PIN WEIGHT. You are limited by the lowest rating that you hit first. You do not get to ignore them all until you hit the highest one or the one you WANT to go by. That is my interpretation.....
    2019 GMC Sierra 3500HD Denali Diesel DRW (Crew Cab | 8 Ft bed | OEM Puck System | Curt Gooseneck Ball for OEM Puck | Timbrens on rear axle)
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  9. #49
    Site Team xrated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
    I guess our disagreement is because I do not view all of the other ratings as optional. They are all max weights for the respective component. They must all be observed and respected. You cannot say "my trailer is 16600 or less and therefore I am ignoring the rest." If you have a fifth wheel and want to stick with the 20% rule, than that means for this given truck, your max trailer weight would be 12500 for a fifth wheel. The truck is rated for more TRAILER, but not for more PIN WEIGHT. You are limited by the lowest rating that you hit first. You do not get to ignore them all until you hit the highest one or the one you WANT to go by. That is my interpretation.....
    I don't think we are in disagreement; I too believe that every single one of the weight capacity ratings should be observed and never exceeded. What I was stating, or at least trying to, is that there are many, many people that don't have even a single clue on towing dynamics and they get focused on the one weight capacity....the tow rating of the truck. Many of them don't know the difference between "Payload" and a "Payday", as in the candy bar. And once they discover that the tow rating is greater than the trailer weight of their trailer or the one they want to buy, they look no further. There is so much mis-information out there, that it truly amazes me how people will just simply listen to others and not research for themselves.....it's scary in fact. Having said all of that, I do realize the all of us had to start somewhere, and none of us knew all about towing dynamics the day we were born, so I'm not shaming anyone...I certainly have no room for that as I was the victim of my own stupidity.....not knowing before purchasing a truck that wasn't big enough for what I had. That is why I try so hard to help educate folks on this topic so that they can hopefully avoid the same costly mistake that I made.
    Last edited by xrated; 10-16-2019 at 06:31 PM.
    2016 F350 CrewCab Dually
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    2023 Suzuki GSX-S1000 GT+
    Excessive Payload is a Wonderful Thing

    "If it ain't fast....It ain't Fun"

  10. #50
    Rolling Along cookinwitdiesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrated View Post
    I don't think we are in disagreement; I too believe that every single one of the weight capacity ratings should be observed and never exceeded. What I was stating, or at least trying to, is that there are many, many people that don't have even a single clue on towing dynamics and they get focused on the one weight capacity....the tow rating of the truck. Many of them don't know the difference between "Payload" and a "Payday", as in the candy bar. And once they discover that the tow rating is greater than the trailer weight of their trailer or the one they want to buy, they look no further. There is so much mis-information out there, that it truly amazes me how people will just simply listen to others and not research for themselves.....it's scary in fact.
    Ahhhh, ya 100% with you there Unfortunately those people will ALWAYS exist. My optimism around the new trailering sticker from GM is because it provides much more information more clearly than it has ever been before. It still requires some analysis and personal responsibility, but that has always been the case. This just removes a little of the guess work and eases the learning curve.
    2019 GMC Sierra 3500HD Denali Diesel DRW (Crew Cab | 8 Ft bed | OEM Puck System | Curt Gooseneck Ball for OEM Puck | Timbrens on rear axle)
    2019 Grand Design Solitude S-Class 3740BH-R Fifth Wheel (Onan 5500W LP Generator | MORryde CRE3000 and HD Shackles/Wet Bolts | 3x MORryde Cross Members | 8k Axles and Disc Brakes | Sailun S637 ST | Reese GooseBox 20k 2nd Gen | Splendide Stackable Washer and Dryer)
    Full Suite of Victron Energy Products (2x 5k 24v Quattro Inverter/Charger | 2x 25.6/200 LFP Smart LiFePO4 Batteries | 2880w of Solar Panels across 4x MPPTs | Cerbo GX)

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