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  1. #31
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    The Honda and Yamaha generators generate a true 120v output. Pretty much ALL of the other generators (including mine) produce a +60/-60 volt signal. That’s +60 on the hot leg and -60 on the ground leg (not the neutral). As far as your appliances are concerned this is 120v.
    I’m not sure what you are measuring, but this is not how any AC power source works.

    Neutral and ground have exactly the same voltage because they are bonded together, either at the power source or via an external bond connection. There is never an intentional connection between neutral and ground within any appliance or fixture, so applying voltage to the ground when isolated from the neutral will not have any effect on any kind of appliance other than energizing the case, then instantly tripping the GFCI.

    Since ground/neutral is the reference point defining a 120V circuit, ground is always at 0V by definition. Since neutral is bonded to the ground at the local source, neutral is also always at 0V by definition, though since the neutral carries current there can be IR voltage due to wire resistance.

    The voltage on the hot moves from +170 to -170V 60 times a second, meaning the voltage is 170V above neutral/ground, then swings to 170V below ground
    John & Kathy
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
    .
    The Honda and Yamaha generators generate a true 120v output. Pretty much ALL of the other generators (including mine) produce a +60/-60 volt signal. That’s +60 on the hot leg and -60 on the ground leg (not the neutral). As far as your appliances are concerned this is 120v. Both signals are acceptable and all your appliances don't know the difference and will work normally. The only time this (+60/-60) is a problem is if you have installed a power monitor system (EMS) to protect your RV from over voltage or under voltage OR the dangerous open neutral line that sometimes happens in campgrounds. This open neutral problem is not really a concern with 30 amp RVs but can kill your appliances on 50 amp RVs. But, that's a topic for a different thread.

    I installed this power monitor system (Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO) just before adding the generator. The power monitor system worked great, until I tried to use it with my new generator. The power monitor would not allow the RV to power up when connected to the generator. Turns out, this is because it’s not a true 120v. The power monitor detects the -60v on the ground line and it says there’s a problem.
    I hadn't given much thought to the difference between the output of a generator with windings for the actual output voltage versus an inverted output.
    My Yamaha EF2400is schematic looks about the same as one in the i4500 manual.
    Now I'll have to look at its 120VAC voltage with reference to the outlet's chassis ground next time I start it.

    I wonder why the bonding plug didn't work on the i4500.

    EF2400is diagram - 5 is the block that creates the 120VAC out:
    Last edited by gbkims; 06-04-2020 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  3. #33
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    The Honda and Yamaha generators generate a true 120v output. Pretty much ALL of the other generators (including mine) produce a +60/-60 volt signal. That’s +60 on the hot leg and -60 on the ground leg (not the neutral). As far as your appliances are concerned this is 120v. Both signals are acceptable and all your appliances don't know the difference and will work normally. The only time this (+60/-60) is a problem is if you have installed a power monitor system (EMS) to protect your RV from over voltage or under voltage OR the dangerous open neutral line that sometimes happens in campgrounds. This open neutral problem is not really a concern with 30 amp RVs but can kill your appliances on 50 amp RVs. But, that's a topic for a different thread.


    That is describing a floating ground system may or may not be +60/-60V could be +80/-40V if neutral and ground are bonded it will force a +120/0VOP did state his generator was bonded frame to neutral so this should not be an issue.
    \

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bstreet5 View Post
    The Honda and Yamaha generators generate a true 120v output. Pretty much ALL of the other generators (including mine) produce a +60/-60 volt signal. That’s +60 on the hot leg and -60 on the ground leg (not the neutral). As far as your appliances are concerned this is 120v. Both signals are acceptable and all your appliances don't know the difference and will work normally. The only time this (+60/-60) is a problem is if you have installed a power monitor system (EMS) to protect your RV from over voltage or under voltage OR the dangerous open neutral line that sometimes happens in campgrounds. This open neutral problem is not really a concern with 30 amp RVs but can kill your appliances on 50 amp RVs. But, that's a topic for a different thread.


    That is describing a floating ground system may or may not be +60/-60V could be +80/-40V if neutral and ground are bonded it will force a +120/0VOP did state his generator was bonded frame to neutral so this should not be an issue.
    \
    There is no positive or negative when dealing with RMS voltages, only magnitude. You will never see a reading of -60VAC because there is no such thing. Peak voltages, or instantaneous voltages, which do have sign, are 170 volts at their peak.

    By definition, there cannot be voltage on the ground/neutral at the service source under any circumstances. It is physically impossible.
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  5. #35
    Big Traveler Wicked ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
    . Last summer I studied this quite a bit and ended up buying the Westinghouse iGen 4500. I'm happy with the unit. There are a number of things I learned in this process that are worth sharing.

    My RV is a 50 amp travel trailer, not a 5th wheel. All 50 amp RVs are actually two 50 amp circuits (not just 2 circuits sharing 50 amps). So, a 50 amp service is actually 100 amp service into the RV.

    The Honda and Yamaha generators generate a true 120v output. Pretty much ALL of the other generators (including mine) produce a +60/-60 volt signal. That’s +60 on the hot leg and -60 on the ground leg (not the neutral). As far as your appliances are concerned this is 120v. Both signals are acceptable and all your appliances don't know the difference and will work normally. The only time this (+60/-60) is a problem is if you have installed a power monitor system (EMS) to protect your RV from over voltage or under voltage OR the dangerous open neutral line that sometimes happens in campgrounds. This open neutral problem is not really a concern with 30 amp RVs but can kill your appliances on 50 amp RVs. But, that's a topic for a different thread.

    I installed this power monitor system (Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO) just before adding the generator. The power monitor system worked great, until I tried to use it with my new generator. The power monitor would not allow the RV to power up when connected to the generator. Turns out, this is because it’s not a true 120v. The power monitor detects the -60v on the ground line and it says there’s a problem. I talked with engineers at both Westinghouse and Hughes and after weeks of discussion I concluded that I could not use the power monitor when I’m running off the generator. Neither company is interested in finding a solution to this problem. I now only use the power monitor when connected to shore power. (BTW, I’m a retired electrical engineer and have designed stuff like this while working at Compaq and Motorola.)

    If you want to test this you can use a voltmeter and measure the voltage from the positive to ground on your generator and then from the neutral on your generator to ground. If you get +60 and -60 you've encountered the problem I just described. You'll have to bypass your EMS when you run the generator.

    Here’s some helpful links if you want to take the time:

    https://www.rvtravel.com/how-generat...r-an-rv-works/

    https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...basics/”

    http://www.myrv.us/electric/”
    I think the problem lies with your your generator. Especially if you are not doing a neutral / ground bond. Truth be told if you are running off an inverter you shouldn't need the EMS at all.
    The proof is I have a Champion gen-set as listed above. I also have a Hughes Autoformer RV220-50sp installed in the basement of my fifth wheel that monitors and filters power as it comes in from the plug. When I first connected the generator the neutral and ground trouble lights were on but I knew why. I made a neutral / ground bonding plug with a 20amp male replacement plug. I also found that the dealer when replacing the male socket at the side of my 5W had not connected the ground properly at the connection. Now the neutral is bonded to chassis ground. I tried it with the ground bonded at the lug and to a ground stake. I'm measured 125vac hot to neutral and hot to ground.
    Last edited by Wicked ace; 06-04-2020 at 03:20 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolman.dustin View Post
    . Last summer I studied this quite a bit and ended up buying the Westinghouse iGen 4500. I'm happy with the unit. There are a number of things I learned in this process that are worth sharing.

    My RV is a 50 amp travel trailer, not a 5th wheel. All 50 amp RVs are actually two 50 amp circuits (not just 2 circuits sharing 50 amps). So, a 50 amp service is actually 100 amp service into the RV.

    The Honda and Yamaha generators generate a true 120v output. Pretty much ALL of the other generators (including mine) produce a +60/-60 volt signal. That’s +60 on the hot leg and -60 on the ground leg (not the neutral). As far as your appliances are concerned this is 120v. Both signals are acceptable and all your appliances don't know the difference and will work normally. The only time this (+60/-60) is a problem is if you have installed a power monitor system (EMS) to protect your RV from over voltage or under voltage OR the dangerous open neutral line that sometimes happens in campgrounds. This open neutral problem is not really a concern with 30 amp RVs but can kill your appliances on 50 amp RVs. But, that's a topic for a different thread.

    I installed this power monitor system (Hughes Autoformers PWD50-EPO) just before adding the generator. The power monitor system worked great, until I tried to use it with my new generator. The power monitor would not allow the RV to power up when connected to the generator. Turns out, this is because it’s not a true 120v. The power monitor detects the -60v on the ground line and it says there’s a problem. I talked with engineers at both Westinghouse and Hughes and after weeks of discussion I concluded that I could not use the power monitor when I’m running off the generator. Neither company is interested in finding a solution to this problem. I now only use the power monitor when connected to shore power. (BTW, I’m a retired electrical engineer and have designed stuff like this while working at Compaq and Motorola.)

    If you want to test this you can use a voltmeter and measure the voltage from the positive to ground on your generator and then from the neutral on your generator to ground. If you get +60 and -60 you've encountered the problem I just described. You'll have to bypass your EMS when you run the generator.

    Here’s some helpful links if you want to take the time:

    https://www.rvtravel.com/how-generat...r-an-rv-works/

    https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...nding-basics/”

    http://www.myrv.us/electric/”
    Thank you toolman.dustin! It's good to have an engineering approach to solving problems. I do the similar thoroughness and you just gave me a short cut. I was coming to the same conclusions and this confirms it. I just got my new generator yesterday and am going to run some tests tomorrow including your voltage test, but only after watching your videos. I'll bet I came to the same conclusions and end up doing the same, not using my EMS with the generator if its output is consistent enough. Thanks!

  7. #37
    Site Sponsor gbkims's Avatar
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    Wanted to see what my generator's output looks like.
    Ran my EF2400is generator at home, it needed running for hurricane season anyway.
    Tried getting some readings without a Bonding Plug to generator chassis ground and then with a Bonding Plug.
    Used a Fluke 345 PQ. Just took photos of the screen as old Fluke software to laptop is a pain to get working.

    Duplex Outlet Line(Hot) to Line(Neutral) - without Bonding Plug:


    Duplex Outlet Line(Hot) to Generator Ground - without Bonding Plug:


    Duplex Outlet Line(Neutral) to Generator Ground - without Bonding Plug


    Duplex Outlet Line(Hot) to Generator Ground - with Bonding Plug



    Duplex Outlet Line(Neutral) to Generator Ground - with Bonding Plug
    - Gene

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  8. #38
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    Without a bonding plug, measuring to ground you are just going to see the results of electromagnetic noise. About like what you’d see measuring to your hand. It’s just a piece of metal near the generator.
    John & Kathy
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkwilson View Post
    There is no positive or negative when dealing with RMS voltages, only magnitude. You will never see a reading of -60VAC because there is no such thing. Peak voltages, or instantaneous voltages, which do have sign, are 170 volts at their peak.

    By definition, there cannot be voltage on the ground/neutral at the service source under any circumstances. It is physically impossible.
    If a generator does not have the neutral bonded to the ground there can be a difference I work with ungrounded systems all the time in a factory setting, peak and RMS can both have negative voltages compared to ground. I do not use peak voltage to describe because it causes confusion for most who are not electricians.
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  10. #40
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    Couldn't bond my Westinghouse generator to my trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by bstreet5 View Post
    If a generator does not have the neutral bonded to the ground there can be a difference I work with ungrounded systems all the time in a factory setting, peak and RMS can both have negative voltages compared to ground. I do not use peak voltage to describe because it causes confusion for most who are not electricians.
    The thing is, when I was diagnosing my problem last year and eventually contacted both Westinghouse and Hughes Autoformers, I had bonded the trailer to the generator and still could not get the EMS to function properly (kept reporting an error code). I never did figure out why bonding didn't resolve the issue. I don't know if this was "normal" or if there was a problem or if this was unique to either Westinghouse or Hughes products. I contacted both Westinghouse (generator) and Hughes (EMS), talked with several individuals at both companies and both companies agreed this was a "normal occurrence" but neither was willing to create a long term solution. I had originally purchased a "built in" EMS. Hughes agreed to trade my 14 day old builtin EMS for a portable unit. So now, when I run on generator I have no EMS, when I connect to shore power I use the portable EMS.

    I'd be interested if there are others who have successfully bonded a Westinghouse generator to a Hughes Autoformer EMS and what was required to be successful.

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