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  1. #11
    Setting Up Camp df_2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    In reading your post regarding the NEC...

    I am wondering if the documentation is referring to "Earth Grounding" versus the more common 12v DC practice of using the metal vehicle body as a "return path" to "Negative" terminal on the battery?
    Yes, I believe you are correct in that he does refer to 'grounding' in the Earth Grounding sense. As I have learned through this install and posting here that the frame is sort or serving as both when hooked up to shore power. Not to open another can of worms as I don't really see that as an issue overall.

    I think my confusion or at least confusion with terminology came from using different sources to plan the build. I purchased a schematic from Explorist.life and in looking at other builds here that note the 'chassis ground' I am wondering if this is serving (or maybe supposed to serve) as both a ground for potential equipment faults AND as a negative return due to the manufacturer construction techniques.

    Probably splitting hairs here at this point as I have my system up and running and it is behaving just fine and I did not separate the two branch returns from the tongue and behind the panel as noted earlier in the post.

    The only other question I can think of is that while off grid/shore power and using the inverter to generate A/C power would it be a reasonable idea to make a ground that runs from the shore plug to the true ground for safety? The other thought for safety would be to swap out arc/fault GFCI breakers but that is probably going way down the rabbit hole...
    Dennis, Jill and the girls
    2022 Transcend Xplor 261BH, 2022 RAM 3500 Laramie DRW, Ford F-450 Platinum (still on order)
    RIP 2021 Transcend 261BH (Totaled by a Semi after just 3 mos and 4.5k of use)

  2. #12
    Site Team Soundsailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerscol View Post
    Now if your installing a heavy draw unit like a Multiplus or inverter that has a large gauge feed wires, it best to have the chassis ground (green screw on frame of multiplus or inverter) be the same gauge as the power feed. This makes sure the power fuse will blow rather than a thin chassis wire, or other unit negative 12V wires from melting in case of n internal short to the multiplus or inverter frame/box.
    Could you please say a bit more about the chassis ground @powerscol? I'm installing a 3,000-watt inverter. The manual says a 10 AWG solid core ground wire is appropriate. The inverter cable package I purchased from WindyNation supplied the same (10 AWG). Are you saying that I should be using 4/0 AWG cable for the chassis ground (same as the battery lead to the inverter)?
    Last edited by Soundsailor; 05-03-2022 at 11:36 AM.
    Stephen and Judy
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    2017 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD (Blue)
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundsailor View Post
    Could you please say a bit more about the chassis ground @powerscol? I'm installing a 3,000-watt inverter. The manual says a 10 AWG solid core ground wire is appropriate. The inverter cable package I purchased from WindyNation supplied the same (10 AWG). Are you saying that I should be using 4/0 AWG cable for the chassis ground (same as the battery lead to the inverter)?
    You can check with Windy Nation, but the electrical engineers at the other place put it this way. Inside your inverter is a bunch of wiring and it has high amperage (both 12v and 120V). What happens if it shorts out to the metal case. The current is going to follow the path of least resistance and try to escape through that 10 awg wire which will melt and possibly catch fire in an instant with full battery current available.. Under this situation your main fuse 300A to 500A may not blow. So I ran a 4/0 wire from the case lug to my common chassis ground. Its just added insurance. I did the same for my solar chargers - used the max wire connection. Not everyone will agree with this, but as a civil engineer I pay attention to what an EE says.
    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel with 6K axle upgrade. B&W 25K OEM Companion, Steadyfast system, 2022 F350 SRW 6.7 King Ranch 8' bed, Trailer reverse lights, rear spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, and Solar

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerscol View Post
    You can check with Windy Nation, but the electrical engineers at the other place put it this way. Inside your inverter is a bunch of wiring and it has high amperage (both 12v and 120V). What happens if it shorts out to the metal case. The current is going to follow the path of least resistance and try to escape through that 10 awg wire which will melt and possibly catch fire in an instant with full battery current available.. Under this situation your main fuse 300A to 500A may not blow. So I ran a 4/0 wire from the case lug to my common chassis ground. Its just added insurance. I did the same for my solar chargers - used the max wire connection. Not everyone will agree with this, but as a civil engineer I pay attention to what an EE says.
    In a nutshell, what @powerscol said is correct. It's a little more complicated than that, but in layman's terms, this is essentially correct.

    Mark & Mary. Currently hailing from New Mexico and going full time in August 2022.
    Current coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
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    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  5. #15
    Big Traveler
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    Quote Originally Posted by df_2112 View Post
    I think my confusion or at least confusion with terminology came from using different sources to plan the build.
    Trouble is the lack of 'good solid conventions' when it comes to 12vdc power. 12 volt -ve, ground, and bonding are all different things but they get swapped in and out of 'instructions' in North America. So people can get easily confused. Add in the lack of even a colour convention in RV's and confusion is even easier to come by.
    2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins SRW w/Aisin
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  6. #16
    Site Team Soundsailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerscol View Post
    Inside your inverter is a bunch of wiring and it has high amperage (both 12v and 120V). What happens if it shorts out to the metal case. The current is going to follow the path of least resistance and try to escape through that 10 awg wire which will melt and possibly catch fire in an instant with full battery current available.. Under this situation your main fuse 300A to 500A may not blow. So I ran a 4/0 wire from the case lug to my common chassis ground. Its just added insurance. I did the same for my solar chargers - used the max wire connection. Not everyone will agree with this, but as a civil engineer I pay attention to what an EE says.
    Thanks @powerscol, I'm not an electrical engineer either (before retirement I was an economist, that starts with an e but the similarity ends there). Yes, my main fuse is 300A and I'm counting on it blowing before I get a fire. I really appreciate the support, obviously a lot of this is new to me. Just for curiosity's sake, how would the case get shorted? The inverter is mounted in a protected location.
    Last edited by Soundsailor; 05-03-2022 at 02:56 PM.
    Stephen and Judy
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  7. #17
    Site Team Soundsailor's Avatar
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    Here's what I was going by:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	renogy manual grounding.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	29.6 KB 
ID:	40393
    Last edited by Soundsailor; 05-04-2022 at 10:37 AM.
    Stephen and Judy
    2022 Reflection 150 Series 260RD (Stella)
    2017 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD (Blue)
    Traded - 2018 Forest River Rockwood Minilite 2104S

  8. #18
    Long Hauler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundsailor View Post
    Thanks @powerscol, I'm not an electrical engineer either (before retirement I was an economist, that starts with an e but the similarity ends there). Yes, my main fuse is 300A and I'm counting on it blowing before I get a fire. I really appreciate the support, obviously a lot of this is new to me. Just for curiosity's sake, how would the case get shorted? The inverter is mounted in a protected location.
    There are any number of Gremlins that could cause a short. A screw that comes loose, a blown capacitor, a blown resistor, a bad solder joint, metal shavings getting sucked into the fan thus into the unit. Most are improbable, but not impossible. People are surprised at what we find as a cause of something electronic going south.

    Mark & Mary. Currently hailing from New Mexico and going full time in August 2022.
    Current coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  9. #19
    Setting Up Camp df_2112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soundsailor View Post
    Here's what I was going by:

    Attachment 40382
    Have been on the road for a couple of days and getting caught up. The link leads to a bad attachment error when I click. Would like to review that.



    I am learning quite a bit from just sorting out the basic terminology. As Scott'n'Wendy pointed out the variability in how interchangeably the terms have been used and the leeway/variability in the code and construction is such that confusion is in my mind is almost a guarantee for anyone that is not an engineer or expert.



    So would it be correct to assume that having the correct max draw fuse and a 'matched' cable set go a long way towards safety with the possibilities? In my case since I am using a 24V LiFePO4 system I have a 150A fuse (don't expect draw more than 3000W for any period of time) and 1/0 cable for my returns. I did use the 1/0 for the chassis ground but interestingly did not for the solar charge controllers. I did oversize those cables a bit but they are wired to the same box connection on the Multiplus. I figured if the draw spiked for a failure the BMS would hopefully take over and shut things down. Not so for AGM or SLA or maybe some lithium battery types. If the cabling is sufficient for the DC side then it should suffice for any 'manageable' A/C eventualities. That ebing said...of course if it is going down in flames, it IS going down in flames.


    Many thanks everyone for the input, i look forward to the ongoing input and comparisons. This area to me seems like a bit of a soft spot or weak link in the safety of a DIY setup. If this all adds up to one system 'saved' then it is well worth digging in to the muck on this one..
    Dennis, Jill and the girls
    2022 Transcend Xplor 261BH, 2022 RAM 3500 Laramie DRW, Ford F-450 Platinum (still on order)
    RIP 2021 Transcend 261BH (Totaled by a Semi after just 3 mos and 4.5k of use)

  10. #20
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    [QUOTE=powerscol;425369
    You will find that GD actually does bond the AC ground to the trailer frame. Find the main ground wire (bare copped) in your distribution box and I'll bet you a cup of coffee that you will find it goes to the frame somewhere. I found mine when I pulled the belly fabric. However in no case should the neutral (white AC circuit wires) tie into the frame. Fortunately GD used solid copper wire (romex) on the AC side. There are exceptions though.[/QUOTE]
    @powerscol @MoonShadow_1911

    I've read that this bonding should be eliminated with the installation of a Multiplus. Reason being is that the Multiplus serves as the bonding point and two points can create a loop.

    Curious if this is correct or if the AC ground to frame at the distribution panel should remain.

    Thoughts?

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    James and Dawn
    2019 F150 SCREW 3.5EB 6.5' - Haloview MC7109; Cooper AT3 LTX; Sumo Springs; ProPride WDH

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