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  1. #1
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    Imagine XLS 23BHE - Off Grid Power

    Hi everyone,

    New 2021 23BHE coming in soon and we have planned a trip where we will be off grid for several days. I've seen tons of videos on how to help things out. Between solar, battery storage and inverters. I have a generator that we can run during certain hours.

    So my thought was to either combine or replace existing 12 volt battery with maybe 2 lithium batteries. I don't necessarily know how to size them in relation to the existing stock battery. But with the batteries add an inverter so we can have maybe 18 hours of 110 volt. Limited A/C as I can run that during the day if needed while the generator is on at night fans can probably do most of the work.

    Two questions:
    1. 1. How many amp hours will I need to be in the ballpark of 18 hours?
    2. 2. The bigger question, is there enough room in this camper?



    Appreciate your thoughts.

  2. #2
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    There is some information you need to answer this question. Trying to run Air Conditioning on battery will take a big solar/battery/inverter setup. Running the AC on generator is good if you want to keep your solar reasonable.

    What do you want to run on 110v? Basically you look at the watts of the items you want to run. Coffee makers, microwave are big users. Can you come up with alternatives such as heat water on the stove and use a drip coffee maker? The number of watts will determine the size of your inverter.

    I just sold my Apex trailer and will be picking up my new 22MLE soon. Here is what my setup will look like, it may not be what you need but it will give you a sense of a system:

    I bought a Giandel 1200W inverter with a remote switch and will locate it under the dinette seat right next to the Electric Panel.
    In the same area I will install (3) 100ah AGM batteries. I will remove the battery from the tongue and not use it. You want your inverter close to batteries if possible. The bigger inverter and the further away the bigger the cable you need. I will be running 18" of #2 AWG wire between batteries and the Inverter.
    I am using a small 15 amp automatic transfer switch (Xantrex 8080915 PROwatt SW) connected to one breaker in the electrical panel that has the outlets. It is possible I may need to add a second Xantrex if the outlets I need off grid power are on a different breaker. Once I get the trailer I will map each breaker in the panel to all electric devices before I start, that will tell me what breaker(s) I need ATS on. Obvioulsy I have posts and circuit breakers in the area of the batteries and inverter. I also usually have a power strip plugged into the inverter and run under the dinette or close by.

    Now for the solar:
    Everyone has there own ideas on what controller type you should use. The costs are all over the place. One common opinion is that 400w and over systems should use a MPPT controller, under 400w you can use either but PWM is more common. Since the new GD trailers are prewired from the roof to the front storage area I just need a couple items.
    I bought (2) 175W panels, a Renogy Adventurer 30w PWM solar controller with bluetooth (for monitoring batteries), a 30amp circuit breaker which doubles as a switch to shut off panel power, brackets and cables to wire the panels to the box on the roof. I have one AGM Battery and will add 2 more over the winter as I find good prices.

    Here is how the costs worked out:
    Electrical (inverter, cables, ATS, etc) $590
    Solar (panels, MC4 cables, Y cable, Dicor, etc) $482
    Batteries $600
    Total $1672

    My Apex was 300Watts of solar and I started with 2 100ah AGM batteries and added a third just because I found it cheap. I don't travel with a generator anymore. I did a 3 week trip to Utah and never had hookups. I ran the furnace, watched movies/TV, charged Laptop, listened to music. Never ran out of power.

    I like the idea of lithium batteries. If I understand it right 300ah of AGM could be replaced with 150ah of Lithium. I guess if you could buy a 150ah Lithium it would run about $1350 vs the $600. It really is up to your budget, preferences, and possibly how much you use your camper.

    I hope this helps. Studying your energy use both on the 12v and 110v side is your first step.
    Dan, Ponderosa Park, CO
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE (SOLD)
    2023 Hiker Mid Range Deluxe 5x9 (Due Oct 2023)
    2018 Nissan Titan Crew

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
    There is some information you need to answer this question. Trying to run Air Conditioning on battery will take a big solar/battery/inverter setup. Running the AC on generator is good if you want to keep your solar reasonable.

    What do you want to run on 110v? Basically you look at the watts of the items you want to run. Coffee makers, microwave are big users. Can you come up with alternatives such as heat water on the stove and use a drip coffee maker? The number of watts will determine the size of your inverter.


    Here is how the costs worked out:
    Electrical (inverter, cables, ATS, etc) $590
    Solar (panels, MC4 cables, Y cable, Dicor, etc) $482
    Batteries $600
    Total $1672

    My Apex was 300Watts of solar and I started with 2 100ah AGM batteries and added a third just because I found it cheap. I don't travel with a generator anymore. I did a 3 week trip to Utah and never had hookups. I ran the furnace, watched movies/TV, charged Laptop, listened to music. Never ran out of power.

    I like the idea of lithium batteries. If I understand it right 300ah of AGM could be replaced with 150ah of Lithium. I guess if you could buy a 150ah Lithium it would run about $1350 vs the $600. It really is up to your budget, preferences, and possibly how much you use your camper.

    I hope this helps. Studying your energy use both on the 12v and 110v side is your first step.
    This is amazing information thank you!.

    I was thinking a couple of lithium, maybe Battery Born 100ah batteries. And I was thinking about using the diagram below. As far as solar, I'm hoping I can use the existing wiring to connect panels to and again the diagram has it covered. Let me know what you think below.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	RV inverter solar.png 
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ID:	29771
    2021 Grand Design Imagine XLS 23BHE
    2021 GMC Yukon Denali W/Duramax

  4. #4
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    Sorry I took so long to respond. Thats a fairly comprehensive diagram. I think if you break this down into 2 systems in your mind it will be easier.

    First is the solar side. This is just the panels, controller, mounting the panels, wiring from the panels to the controller, and wiring the controller into the 12v system which could mean directly to the battery.

    Second is how you are going to use the power. I would focus on the 110V use when not connected to shore power. Once you figure out your desired use then you pick an inverter size. That will determine how you wire into your system.

    The way you are thinking about using your generator for AC then relying on an inverter for watching TV, charging laptops, maybe a slow cooker, makes sense. So here is the rub. If you wire the inverter output to a transfer switch into the input of your entire 110v panel this will probably complicate your 110 use a little. For example if you set your fridge to auto it will use 110v to run if its there, if not it uses propane. So if the inverter runs the entire 110v panel the fridge will run on 110v and your batteries won't last long or you will have have a bigger bank. If you use just one breaker or maybe two for the inverter the fridge won't have 110v when you turn on your inverter and therefor will run on propane. Batteries last longer, smaller inverter, smaller battery bank, smaller wires, smaller solar panel requirement, less holes in your roof, etc. Smaller cost, less weight. In a smaller travel trailer I believe you need to keep it simple as possible. My friend went for it in his 5th wheel and spent 8k and then lets talk what weight he added.

    I can draw out the wiring diagram for you but lets start with:
    Sizing your 110v use. What do you want to power and look up its wattage (see below). For now focus on peak use not the daily total.
    Picking an inverter size. Of the items above add up the wattage of the items you will run at the same time.
    Mapping out what each breaker in your 110v runs.

    Here is table of common devices and normal wattage. Focus on the 110v items:
    https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar...on/power-table
    The newer 32" LED TV's use more like 60 watts. But you can see a Blu-Ray player 15 Watts, Coffee maker 1000. Things that heat or cool use energy. Is there an alternative way to do it?

    This is a pretty good article:
    http://trailertraveler.net/calculate-rv-amp-usage/

    Dan
    Dan, Ponderosa Park, CO
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE (SOLD)
    2023 Hiker Mid Range Deluxe 5x9 (Due Oct 2023)
    2018 Nissan Titan Crew

  5. #5
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    Drawing and images of my planned 22MLE solar/electrical upgrade

    I put together a little drawing and some pictures of the Surge Protector, ProWatt ATS, and circuit breakers. I use the 200amp breaker to protect the batteries and the 2AWG wiring to the inverter. I use a 30 amp inline circuit breaker from the (2) 175w solar panels and it also doubles as a switch.

    I was hoping to upload the image in the message but can't seem to make it work, maybe since I am still in trial mode?


    https://photos.app.goo.gl/TJm3qeuFeuraTd119This is a google photos share of the solar components and crude drawing.

    EMS: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B002UC6RSA
    ProWatt ATS: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B004S5Y158
    200Amp Circuit Breaker: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07G2HNMW6?th=1
    30 Amp Circuit breaker for solar panels: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07GWJB31C
    Last edited by SailorDan; 09-28-2020 at 10:20 AM.
    Dan, Ponderosa Park, CO
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE (SOLD)
    2023 Hiker Mid Range Deluxe 5x9 (Due Oct 2023)
    2018 Nissan Titan Crew

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorDan View Post
    Sorry I took so long to respond. Thats a fairly comprehensive diagram. I think if you break this down into 2 systems in your mind it will be easier.

    First is the solar side. This is just the panels, controller, mounting the panels, wiring from the panels to the controller, and wiring the controller into the 12v system which could mean directly to the battery.

    Second is how you are going to use the power. I would focus on the 110V use when not connected to shore power. Once you figure out your desired use then you pick an inverter size. That will determine how you wire into your system.

    The way you are thinking about using your generator for AC then relying on an inverter for watching TV, charging laptops, maybe a slow cooker, makes sense. So here is the rub. If you wire the inverter output to a transfer switch into the input of your entire 110v panel this will probably complicate your 110 use a little. For example if you set your fridge to auto it will use 110v to run if its there, if not it uses propane. So if the inverter runs the entire 110v panel the fridge will run on 110v and your batteries won't last long or you will have have a bigger bank. If you use just one breaker or maybe two for the inverter the fridge won't have 110v when you turn on your inverter and therefor will run on propane. Batteries last longer, smaller inverter, smaller battery bank, smaller wires, smaller solar panel requirement, less holes in your roof, etc. Smaller cost, less weight. In a smaller travel trailer I believe you need to keep it simple as possible. My friend went for it in his 5th wheel and spent 8k and then lets talk what weight he added.

    I can draw out the wiring diagram for you but lets start with:
    Sizing your 110v use. What do you want to power and look up its wattage (see below). For now focus on peak use not the daily total.
    Picking an inverter size. Of the items above add up the wattage of the items you will run at the same time.
    Mapping out what each breaker in your 110v runs.

    Here is table of common devices and normal wattage. Focus on the 110v items:
    https://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar...on/power-table
    The newer 32" LED TV's use more like 60 watts. But you can see a Blu-Ray player 15 Watts, Coffee maker 1000. Things that heat or cool use energy. Is there an alternative way to do it?

    This is a pretty good article:
    http://trailertraveler.net/calculate-rv-amp-usage/

    Dan
    Wow thanks Dan for the incredible thought into this.

    A few comments/questions.

    - As far as the fridge, do the Dometic fridges have a manual button for Propane or Electric? It may also be possible to crack open that sensor and feed it only shore power to the sensor for switching over, but I am not too worried about it...and it is only 2.7 amps and can still maybe switch it manually
    - What are your thoughts on Victron equipment?
    - My thought was to build out the system so for future RV's I could take with me and still have the expansion I need. So I might go with a 3000 watt inverter.
    - I would run everything in the AC panel, but not everything will run at the same time, and generator can certainly cover during the day, extra batteries can be added to. The weight of a 100AH L-ion battery is about 40lbs, so not too bad. AC might cycle on a hot night.
    - I would want an AC cutoff as when the batteries get to a certain point, we would keep DC going but stop the AC circuits.
    - Where? Meaning in the 23BHE where should I setup the equipment. I would prefer to take the battery off the A frame and centralize everything somewhere in the trailer. The basement might be an idea if things can fit. Would like to keep DC wiring close as the heavy gauge wire is expensive.
    2021 Grand Design Imagine XLS 23BHE
    2021 GMC Yukon Denali W/Duramax

  7. #7
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    The fridges do have a manual button to switch modes. I don't know about you but I try to make things as simple as possible without having to remember to do anything. The way I am setting mine up I will always leave it on auto and never have to worry or find out i forgot to switch it. That is why I am not having the inverter run the entire 110v panel. You will also have to buy a transfer switch much bigger than mine and decide if it will be automatic or manual.

    Its fine to go with a bigger inverter and run more on it. That also means you are likely to need more batteries and then buy thicker wire to run the inverter. Victron makes nice stuff. Can't argue that. But there are good options at lessor price points, especially if you can keep your needs reined in. You should actually create a list of everything you need, add up the dollars, the volume of space it consumes and the weight. My guess is the lithium (200ah maybe), victron and monitoring tools, 3000w inverter, transfer switch, solar panels, and wiring etc you are talking about is nearly 4k just in parts. It is one way to go and if you are full time in your rig, might be the right way. It is about your needs/wants and how much of your money, space and payload you want to committ to the system.

    Location issues. I just looked at the 360 view of the 23BHE. It looks like the power panel is just inside the front door under the cabinet between the entry and the bedroom. It looks like the cabinet is the only thing around so a possible location for your batteries, inverter and electric gear. The alternative could be the front storage. Under the bed another and maybe better because it is harder to get to storage. Understand if you put your batteries and inverter in the front storage/under the bed you have to run 110v to electrical panel from the inverter. Will the inverter have a remote switch (you want to have the inverter running only when you are using it)? What about the monitoring display for the controller? I use Bluetooth and my phone to monitor the solar and battery state.

    A couple of other notes. You can't mix leaded batteries with lithium or AGM (or lithium with AGM) unless you isolate them and have separate controllers/panels. Not sure how you do that with the converter that charges the batteries when on shore power. So basically you abandon the lead acid battery on the tongue.
    I also think you need to think through a possible conflict of the converter running when you turn on the inverter and energize the entire panel. Off course you could turn the breaker off on the converter but one more thing to remember and what are the consequences of forgetting? Just another reason why KISS rule (Keep It Simple Stupid) is just easier to follow. In my system the only thing that gets switched on and off is the inverter and its a remote switch with a light. Everything else is automatic because I like it that way. It is easy for your traveling companion to understand as well.
    Dan, Ponderosa Park, CO
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE (SOLD)
    2023 Hiker Mid Range Deluxe 5x9 (Due Oct 2023)
    2018 Nissan Titan Crew

  8. #8
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    The victron multiplus is an inverter, converter and transfer switch in one. So it might simplify things a bit. It also works with charge controller and has Bluetooth so you can monitor and control.

  9. #9
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    That's pretty slick and small. I guess it replaces the converter/charger in your house panel? I guess you could just unwire the house converter? It seems meant for a motorhome with the starter battery reference but hey if you have the money. It also lets you run a second separate battery like your old lead acid battery if you want, maybe for outside 12v use on a Traeger grill or lights? Personally I would still abandon the Lead Acid battery that you have to check the water levels on.

    It would be interesting to see how the Victron solar charger integrates into this system.

    I hope we run into each other sometime. I would to see your system and what it was like to install when you get it done.

    My electrical portion of $590 breaks out as follows:
    $208 Giandel 1200W pure sine wave inverter w/remote switch
    62 Xantrex Prowatt ATS Switches one breaker circuit only
    13 Junction post
    17 200amp Circuit breaker
    46 10' Red + 10' Black #2 AWG pure copper welding cable (from WindyNation)
    $345 for inverter and installation items. I had lugs already.

    You still use the following on the front side of your 110v panel to insure shore power is clean:
    $244 Progressive industries EMS hardwired surge protector
    $589 Total all electrical portion.
    Dan, Ponderosa Park, CO
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE (SOLD)
    2023 Hiker Mid Range Deluxe 5x9 (Due Oct 2023)
    2018 Nissan Titan Crew

  10. #10
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    PS... If you decide on the Battle Born Lithium batteries look at joining the Escapees RV club if you are not a member already. They have a good discount on the Battle Borns. (like $874 for a 100ah)

    It is a good group with lots of helpful info. www.escapees.com
    Dan, Ponderosa Park, CO
    2021 Imagine XLS 22MLE (SOLD)
    2023 Hiker Mid Range Deluxe 5x9 (Due Oct 2023)
    2018 Nissan Titan Crew

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