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  1. #1
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    BattleBorn response to continually charging LiFePO4s

    There's been some discussion on whether LiFePO4s are suitable for full-time shore powered applications. Below is my question and following their response:

    "Recently posted on a forum was a comment that LiFePO4 batteries may not be suitable for full-time RV living with connected shore power continually keeping the batteries topped off while stationary for months. Comment was based on the perception that LiFePO4s should be stored during the winter at 60% charge which is not consistent with BattleBorn’s recommendations based upon your blog and video. Is this an accurate comment in terms of an inappropriate use case for LiFePO4 batteries?"

    BattleBorn response:

    "Lifepo4 batteries with a BMS charge up to a balancing voltage - where after balancing drop to a resting voltage (for ours the battery charges to 14.2-14.6)

    If you keep the battery plugged in you are wasting battery cycles because it will be constantly moving 1-3% daily until unplugged.

    Storing Lifepo4 batteries at 60% state of charge is a statement that I am unsure where it comes from - Our battery discharges 2-3% a month regardless of its state of charge and there is zero benefit to storing it at a certain voltage - I advise customers to engage a shut off when storing the rig - to avoid wasting battery cycles - its also silly to continuously charge a battery that doesn't need to be charged.

    In cases where customers put them in older RVs with constant output converters without a float voltage - that would damage a battery - because it doesn't let the battery do what it needs to to function. You could fix that buy unplugging from shore once a month for an hour."

    I've highlighted statements that actually cause me to question the response and wonder if LiFePO4s can be degraded by continual charging while plugged into shore power (which is what I am currently doing).
    Robin & John
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg617 View Post
    There's been some discussion on whether LiFePO4s are suitable for full-time shore powered applications. Below is my question and following their response:

    "Recently posted on a forum was a comment that LiFePO4 batteries may not be suitable for full-time RV living with connected shore power continually keeping the batteries topped off while stationary for months. Comment was based on the perception that LiFePO4s should be stored during the winter at 60% charge which is not consistent with BattleBorn’s recommendations based upon your blog and video. Is this an accurate comment in terms of an inappropriate use case for LiFePO4 batteries?"

    BattleBorn response:

    "Lifepo4 batteries with a BMS charge up to a balancing voltage - where after balancing drop to a resting voltage (for ours the battery charges to 14.2-14.6)

    If you keep the battery plugged in you are wasting battery cycles because it will be constantly moving 1-3% daily until unplugged.

    Storing Lifepo4 batteries at 60% state of charge is a statement that I am unsure where it comes from - Our battery discharges 2-3% a month regardless of its state of charge and there is zero benefit to storing it at a certain voltage - I advise customers to engage a shut off when storing the rig - to avoid wasting battery cycles - its also silly to continuously charge a battery that doesn't need to be charged.

    In cases where customers put them in older RVs with constant output converters without a float voltage - that would damage a battery - because it doesn't let the battery do what it needs to to function. You could fix that buy unplugging from shore once a month for an hour."

    I've highlighted statements that actually cause me to question the response and wonder if LiFePO4s can be degraded by continual charging while plugged into shore power (which is what I am currently doing).
    So, with ANY battery operated "device" that can be connected to AC power to use and charge at the same time will eventually wear the battery down.

    A slight parallel I will make is your cell phone. You charge it overnight and unplug it in the morning to use it all day. This "cycles", or exercises, the battery and, at the same time, degrades it. Your cell phone battery will last approximately 18 months at it's peak capacity before it starts to drop off. If you keep your cell phone plugged in, all the time, and use it daily (while plugged in), your battery is constantly cycling between discharging and charging, which will degrade the battery, as well over time.

    This is the same for your coach batteries. The question you will need to ask yourself is if you can "live" with an expensive battery that you aren't being the full potential from it.

    The minute charge/discharge cycle is akin to using an ice pick to chip away at an ice sculpture, just a couple of picks every minute.

    The advantage to a lithium chemistry battery (whether Li-Ion or LiFePO4) is they can withstand a larger number of charge/discharge cycles then a lead acid battery (whether sealed or not). They also can withstand higher and lower temperatures better than LA batteries. (Charging is a different story.)

    It might make more sense to buy the less expensive LiFePO4 batteries that @SolarPoweredRV had done several write-ups on, then to go with top-of-the-line Battle Born or Dragonfly batteries.

    Personally, LiFePO4 batteries and a compatible converter are the way to go, whether you are stationary and always plugged in, or you are boondocking with solar 100% of the time. The advantages of LiFePO4 batteries over LA far out weight the issues.

    It's really a personal choice.

    If you are interested, I will provide the engineering and science behind my statements above. It's dry reading for most people. [emoji16]
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
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  3. #3
    Site Sponsor ajg617's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow_1911 View Post
    So, with ANY battery operated "device" that can be connected to AC power to use and charge at the same time will eventually wear the battery down.

    A slight parallel I will make is your cell phone.
    I get it with the cell parallel. BUT, I typically charge overnight and draw down during the day so SOC is 40-70% on any given re-charge.

    I think the quote that bothered me the most is wasting charge cycles on a 3% draw down every night which is what I normally experience in the RV unless we are dry camping for a night. That is exactly what my BMV has been showing so if I read the response correctly, I'm wasting my LiFePO4s in current use case.
    Robin & John
    2020 Ram 3500 LB SRW 4WD Crew Laramie 6.7HO Aisin, 55gal Titan
    2022 Solitude 310GK-R - Dual pane, factory solar & Onan, 8K axles with discs, 18K GVWR, W/D, Heat Pump, Goosebox, Battleborn

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg617 View Post
    I get it with the cell parallel. BUT, I typically charge overnight and draw down during the day so SOC is 40-70% on any given re-charge.

    I think the quote that bothered me the most is wasting charge cycles on a 3% draw down every night which is what I normally experience in the RV unless we are dry camping for a night. That is exactly what my BMV has been showing so if I read the response correctly, I'm wasting my LiFePO4s in current use case.
    I would call it wasting; I would say, "Not using to it's fullest potential." As I stated above, fiscally, it might make more sense to buy the inexpensive batteries that @SolarPoweredRV has written about instead of top-of-the-line.

    I've been waffling between Battle Born/Dragonfly and the inexpensive AmpTime batteries.
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg617 View Post
    There's been some discussion on whether LiFePO4s are suitable for full-time shore powered applications. Below is my question and following their response:

    "Recently posted on a forum was a comment that LiFePO4 batteries may not be suitable for full-time RV living with connected shore power continually keeping the batteries topped off while stationary for months. Comment was based on the perception that LiFePO4s should be stored during the winter at 60% charge which is not consistent with BattleBorn’s recommendations based upon your blog and video. Is this an accurate comment in terms of an inappropriate use case for LiFePO4 batteries?"

    BattleBorn response:

    "Lifepo4 batteries with a BMS charge up to a balancing voltage - where after balancing drop to a resting voltage (for ours the battery charges to 14.2-14.6)

    If you keep the battery plugged in you are wasting battery cycles because it will be constantly moving 1-3% daily until unplugged.

    Storing Lifepo4 batteries at 60% state of charge is a statement that I am unsure where it comes from - Our battery discharges 2-3% a month regardless of its state of charge and there is zero benefit to storing it at a certain voltage - I advise customers to engage a shut off when storing the rig - to avoid wasting battery cycles - its also silly to continuously charge a battery that doesn't need to be charged.

    In cases where customers put them in older RVs with constant output converters without a float voltage - that would damage a battery - because it doesn't let the battery do what it needs to to function. You could fix that buy unplugging from shore once a month for an hour."

    I've highlighted statements that actually cause me to question the response and wonder if LiFePO4s can be degraded by continual charging while plugged into shore power (which is what I am currently doing).
    Interesting. There has been a learning process over the last few years and what Battle Born says has changed in some instances. For example in the response that you got from BB they state, “ In cases where customers put them in older RVs with constant output converters without a float voltage - that would damage a battery - because it doesn't let the battery do what it needs to to function.” A constant output converter is what BB was selling a couple of years ago. I purchased a Progressive Dynamics PD9160 ALV from BB and it holds the batteries at 14.4 constant voltage and does not have a float mode. Since I purchased my converter I have learned that Progressive Dynamics came out with a newer model of the PD9160 that has a float cycle so it is not just older RVs. I did talk to BB over a year ago and they said at that time since I was living in the RV it was not a problem because the batteries are being used. Since I use solar and don’t use the converter except for charging the batteries if there is not enough sun I have not worried about it. Maybe I will talk to them again.
    Last edited by Always Learning; 02-17-2023 at 08:18 PM.
    2020 Reflection 337RLS
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  6. #6
    Site Sponsor ajg617's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Always Learning View Post
    Interesting. There has been a learning process over the last few years and what Battle Born says has changed in some instances. For example in the response that you got from BB they state, “ In cases where customers put them in older RVs with constant output converters without a float voltage - that would damage a battery - because it doesn't let the battery do what it needs to to function.” A constant output converter is what BB was selling a couple of years ago. I purchased a Progressive Dynamics PD9160 ALV from BB and it produces 14.4 constant voltage and does not have a float mode. Since I purchased my converter I have learned that Progressive Dynamics came out with a newer model of the PD9160 that has a float cycle so it is not just older RVs. I did talk to BB over a year ago and they said at that time since I was living in the RV it was not a problem because the batteries are being used. Since I use solar and don’t use the converter except for charging the batteries if there is not enough sun I have not worried about it. Maybe I will talk to them again.
    So this is where I'm at. I purchased the PD-9160ALV from BattleBorn and it does have a float mode. I have had an instance where the PD did not charge the batteries despite a low SOC over 11 days and PD says this was an issue with their charge controller being 'fooled' by an alternate charge source (in my case factory solar). Discussing with PD, this all comes down to the version of the 9160ALV that BattleBorn shipped.

    So fundamentally, my question still stands - are these the correct batteries for a system that gets charged fully months on end? Doesn't seem like so.
    Robin & John
    2020 Ram 3500 LB SRW 4WD Crew Laramie 6.7HO Aisin, 55gal Titan
    2022 Solitude 310GK-R - Dual pane, factory solar & Onan, 8K axles with discs, 18K GVWR, W/D, Heat Pump, Goosebox, Battleborn

    2023 stays

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg617 View Post
    So this is where I'm at. I purchased the PD-9160ALV from BattleBorn and it does have a float mode. I have had an instance where the PD did not charge the batteries despite a low SOC over 11 days and PD says this was an issue with their charge controller being 'fooled' by an alternate charge source (in my case factory solar). Discussing with PD, this all comes down to the version of the 9160ALV that BattleBorn shipped.

    So fundamentally, my question still stands - are these the correct batteries for a system that gets charged fully months on end? Doesn't seem like so.
    Are you asking specifically about Battle Born batteries, or LiFePO4 batteries in general?
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

  8. #8
    Site Sponsor ajg617's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShadow_1911 View Post
    Are you asking specifically about Battle Born batteries, or LiFePO4 batteries in general?
    I have BattleBorns, but the context is in reference to the recent post on LiFePO4s being charged continually for those who are full time and connected to shore power for months on end. Not much different for me where I have my RV connected to 110v during the winter. There's a good case to be made for those who dry camp, but not necessarily for those who winter connected to shore power continuously.
    Robin & John
    2020 Ram 3500 LB SRW 4WD Crew Laramie 6.7HO Aisin, 55gal Titan
    2022 Solitude 310GK-R - Dual pane, factory solar & Onan, 8K axles with discs, 18K GVWR, W/D, Heat Pump, Goosebox, Battleborn

    2023 stays

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg617 View Post
    I have BattleBorns, but the context is in reference to the recent post on LiFePO4s being charged continually for those who are full time and connected to shore power for months on end. Not much different for me where I have my RV connected to 110v during the winter. There's a good case to be made for those who dry camp, but not necessarily for those who winter connected to shore power continuously.
    Okay, personally, in either case, I would go with a LiFePO4 battery bank and a compatible converter (or Victron MultiPlus II, but that's another post).

    We are full time in our coach, on AGM batteries now since I'm saving for LiFePO4 batteries and a MultiPlus II. We usually stay 2-6 months in one place, on shore power. If I really wanted to get into the weeds in it, I would put a spreadsheet together to analyze the possible number of "charge cycles' I would be putting the batteries through while on shore power, then estimating the number of charge cycles a battery would last for, and compare that to a LA or AGM battery and see which one end up with the best cost/benefit ratio.

    From my "arm chair" calculations (which isn't anything more than a guesstimate), the cost of LA or AGM battery bank, over time, would exceed the cost of an inexpensive LiFePO4 battery bank. Based solely on charge cycles.

    Considering an AGM battery with only ~50 Ah costs about the same as a 100 Ah AmpTime (I think that's the name) LiFePO4 battery, for me, is a no brainier. The AGM would last, on average, 3-5 years. The LiFePO4 battery would last 5-10 years. So the AGM batteries would cost almost twice as much (or more) than the LiFePO4 batteries, over time.

    Again, it comes down to the ROI (return on investment) for the batteries that were purchased.
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajg617 View Post
    I have BattleBorns, but the context is in reference to the recent post on LiFePO4s being charged continually for those who are full time and connected to shore power for months on end. Not much different for me where I have my RV connected to 110v during the winter. There's a good case to be made for those who dry camp, but not necessarily for those who winter connected to shore power continuously.
    BTW, LA batteries will degrade as well being charged all the time. Especially if one doesn't check the water level every month. Even AGM batteries will degrade when constantly plugged in. This is why the battery (ies) in a UPS (uninterruptible power systems) are warrantied for only 1 year as they will typically last 3 years, at most, before needing to be replaced.
    Mark & Mary. Full-timing across the USA (and Canada)!
    Current Coach: 2021 Grand Design Reflection 320MKS
    Current Rig: 2019 Ford F350 SD Crew Cab, w/8' box, Lariat, SRW, 6.7l Diesel

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