Electric F-150 Lightning -- Our Weekend Test Drive

[NB Canada]

The heating system in the vehicle automatically warms the battery if the internal temperatures are too low.

These cars have been tested in very cold and very hot temperatures.

There are tens of thousands of EVs operating in Canada, Norway, and Northern States throughout the winter months.

Battery Electric Vehicles are not brand new, the Nisssan Leaf was sold world wide in 2011 and Tesla has been selling the Model S since 2012.

So they must plug them in immediately after using it?

I mean it is cold here. We could have 3 weeks of -40 temps. Things don’t stay warm long

I would imagine if I drove somewhere and stopped for a few hours in those temps the battery would be well below freezing

Yes they have been tested and it appears to work but maybe it is exponentially degrading the batteries
I am sure Mr Musk has this data being saved in the computer to help in voiding battery warranty

[SolarPoweredRV]

Except it is worse with the battery. Everytime you use a life cycle, the battery's capacity gets a tiny bit smaller. In your gas example, the tank would not shrink at all.

I can understand the concern, however one study of the battery health on EVs used in a V2G trial determined that the draw downs of the EV battery actually improved battery health and reduced degradation.

Additionally, a battery cycle is defined as a full charge/discharge cycle. The partial discharge the Grid takes from the battery does not appreciably reduce the battery capacity.

By the way, you do get paid for the electricity the utility company uses from your battery.

You also have control as to how much energy the utility can take from your battery, for example: you could limit the draw down to leave you with 30% SOC (State of Charge), leaving you with enough energy to go out on the town for the evening. This, combined with you limiting your charge to 80 - 85% will extend your battery life.

Note: you normally don't charge your EV to 100% on a daily basis, unless you are planning a longer trip.

[SolarPoweredRV]

So they must plug them in immediately after using it?

I mean it is cold here. We could have 3 weeks of -40 temps. Things don’t stay warm long

I would imagine if I drove somewhere and stopped for a few hours in those temps the battery would be well below freezing

Yes they have been tested and it appears to work but maybe it is exponentially degrading the batteries
I am sure Mr Musk has this data being saved in the computer to help in voiding battery warranty

During those cold spells do you leave your Gas/Diesel vehicles sit out in the cold?

Every vehicle has an engine block heater and you plug your vehicle in wherever you stop. You might need to do the same for your EV. In reality, nothing changes.

[NB Canada]

During those cold spells do you leave your Gas/Diesel vehicles sit out in the cold?

Every vehicle has an engine block heater and you plug your vehicle in wherever you stop. You might need to do the same for your EV. In reality, nothing changes.

I never use a block heater. Most vehicles don’t even have them. Use to be standard equipment but not anymore. So plug them in whenever you stop??
When there are millions of these EVs it will never work
And charging in “off peak” times will eventually not be possible because every minute of every day will be peak when there are 10s of millions of EVs
In many places in the north diesel trucks don’t get shut off because they won’t restart until spring

[JKellerJr]

You can have my diesel when you pry it from my cold dead .....

Look I'm no electric fan boy, I've gone rounds with @SolarPoweredRV more than once before. Don't own one, never have, probably will someday. But to dismiss EV's outright is fools errand.They are coming in a big way whether we like it or not.

Look at it this way. Split the vehicle side from the "fueling" side. Taking the fueling issues out of the equation for now, I can't think of one single advantage an ICE has over an EV. You think diesel has torque/power? Modern locomotives are driven by electric motors. Those motors are powered by mainly diesel engines in the USA (remember that hybrid truck we were talking about) or straight from the grid (more common in europe). EV's are also simpler which leads to less maintenance, They have more room, that whole engine bay become storage space. etc.

Now on the fueling side there are major hurdles and really that is where most everyone's issues (including mine) come from.

The tech on the car side I think is going to advance exponentially. ICE's have been researched and improved upon for 100+ years. I don't think there is that much left to be found. Maybe, but the improvements are very small now and the complexity to get them is high.

EV's, while being around for nearly as long, haven't had much effort put into them until very very recently. We're basically at Gen 1. Now that every major auto manufacturer has jumped in with both feet we should see the tech advance quickly. Battery chemistry may change, charging methods improved. storage capacity improved, etc. Thinking that the issues with cold or heat or range, etc are not going to be addressed isn't very realistic. Yes they may be issue now more or less but that doesn't mean it is a permanent problem.

The big issue is infrastructure. Sorry but I graduated from the school of common sense, you can't add a huge demand for power on our already feeble grid and not have big time issues. No studies or words from politicians will convince me otherwise. That being said, if an EV side effect is the forced upgrade to our already ancient grid then its a bonus as far as I'm concerned. Our grid needs to be modernized regardless of if we never build another EV. But we're also gonna need billions more dollars poured into universal superchargers being as plentiful as gas stations are now. We'll need to have a reasonable chance of getting to use one and "fill up" in a similar time frame as we have now. Until that happens EV's will still be a glorified niche vehicle, the second or third car if you will. Unfortunately that will probably turn into another giveaway to major corporations where we pay for it and they profit from it.

Bottom line for me is (at least on the HD towing truck front) if I could get 250 real world (not max) miles of range pulling my solitude (about how far I go between diesel fills) and I could expect to find a place to "fill" it up as commonly as I can find a diesel station and do it in say 30 min or so I'm in. Assuming the cold/heat other issues have been resolved I can't think of a good reason not to. How realistic is that, who knows but I'll admit I am totally surprised how fast things are moving even compared to a year or two ago.

[Easycamper]

When a EV can produce the horsepower and torque my Power Stroke produces then maybe I will consider one. EV's will never replace gas or diesel. Sounds like Liberal BS to me.

The F-150 Lightning is a half-ton truck* that produces 580 HP and 775 lb-ft at 0 RPM. Horsepower and torque won’t be a problem.

(*It has a GVWR of 8550 lbs so technically a 3/4-ton)

[SolarPoweredRV]

You can have my diesel when you pry it from my cold dead .....

Look I'm no electric fan boy, I've gone rounds with @SolarPoweredRV more than once before. Don't own one, never have, probably will someday. But to dismiss EV's outright is fools errand.They are coming in a big way whether we like it or not.

Look at it this way. Split the vehicle side from the "fueling" side. Taking the fueling issues out of the equation for now, I can't think of one single advantage an ICE has over an EV. You think diesel has torque/power? Modern locomotives are driven by electric motors. Those motors are powered by mainly diesel engines in the USA (remember that hybrid truck we were talking about) or straight from the grid (more common in europe). EV's are also simpler which leads to less maintenance, They have more room, that whole engine bay become storage space. etc.

Now on the fueling side there are major hurdles and really that is where most everyone's issues (including mine) come from.

The tech on the car side I think is going to advance exponentially. ICE's have been researched and improved upon for 100+ years. I don't think there is that much left to be found. Maybe, but the improvements are very small now and the complexity to get them is high.

EV's, while being around for nearly as long, haven't had much effort put into them until very very recently. We're basically at Gen 1. Now that every major auto manufacturer has jumped in with both feet we should see the tech advance quickly. Battery chemistry may change, charging methods improved. storage capacity improved, etc. Thinking that the issues with cold or heat or range, etc are not going to be addressed isn't very realistic. Yes they may be issue now more or less but that doesn't mean it is a permanent problem.

The big issue is infrastructure. Sorry but I graduated from the school of common sense, you can't add a huge demand for power on our already feeble grid and not have big time issues. No studies or words from politicians will convince me otherwise. That being said, if an EV side effect is the forced upgrade to our already ancient grid then its a bonus as far as I'm concerned. Our grid needs to be modernized regardless of if we never build another EV. But we're also gonna need billions more dollars poured into universal superchargers being as plentiful as gas stations are now. We'll need to have a reasonable chance of getting to use one and "fill up" in a similar time frame as we have now. Until that happens EV's will still be a glorified niche vehicle, the second or third car if you will. Unfortunately that will probably turn into another giveaway to major corporations where we pay for it and they profit from it.

Bottom line for me is (at least on the HD towing truck front) if I could get 250 real world (not max) miles of range pulling my solitude (about how far I go between diesel fills) and I could expect to find a place to "fill" it up as commonly as I can find a diesel station and do it in say 30 min or so I'm in. Assuming the cold/heat other issues have been resolved I can't think of a good reason not to. How realistic is that, who knows but I'll admit I am totally surprised how fast things are moving even compared to a year or two ago.

Wow @JKellerJr, really excellent points.

I really like your point about the EVs being on Gen 1.

I agree that HD Towing has a way to go, but the Tesla Semi proves HD Towing is possible, probably not soon, but possible.

[JeffD68]

The near religious fervor of EV advocates always strikes me as odd. Make EVs the best possible mode of transportation and the market will adopt the technology naturally. We are constantly being convinced, coerced, and financially (with tax dollars) incentivized to follow this specific agenda. My wife drives a plug-in hybrid Audi Q5. We love it. We should, because it's a $65,000 compact SUV. If not for the California rebate and federal tax credit, there is no way I would have paid the almost $10K premium for the PHEV option. I installed a dedicated 50 amp outlet in the garage and we have a solar system (also incentivized with a 30% federal tax credit) that generally produces excess power during daylight hours. We pay no mind to when the car gets plugged in. When we get home, it gets plugged in. With approximately $17,000 in direct federal tax credits, the ROI for the solar and PHEV was brought down to a length that made financial sense. I'm not convinced that it is a wise use of taxpayer money, but I'd be a fool not to take advantage of it. Lord know I'm paying more than my fair share in CA and federal taxes.

These discussions always leave me with a burning question; where will poor people charge their mandated EVs? Will landlords be forced to install charging stations? That'll lead to a healthy rent increase! Will the employers of the working poor install employee-only charging stations? Even if these charging stations magically appear, how will less fortunate folks afford an EV? Tax credits are only useful if you pay taxes at least equal to the credit and I'm pretty sure they aren't applicable in the used market. And speaking of the used market, how long will it take before it is full of vehicles that are actually affordable for most everyone? At this stage, most of the manufacturers are focused on high end (high margin) EVs. Those aren't going to be cheap used cars any time soon.

This forum is made up of people with disposable income that generally own their homes. Most of us have some money in the bank and a place to charge our EV. That is hardly an accurate representation of society as a whole. My guess is the poor will be driven even deeper into urban cores and forced to use public transportation exclusively, further limiting their mobility. That sounds about right. As is typical of most "progressive" policies, the truly disadvantaged become more so. Whatever, I'll be good either way, and that's what's important, right?

[NB Canada]

ICE's have been researched and improved upon for 100+ years. I don't think there is that much left to be found. Maybe, but the improvements are very small now and the complexity to get them is high.

Thinking that the issues with cold or heat or range, etc are not going to be addressed isn't very realistic. Yes they may be issue now more or less but that doesn't mean it is a permanent problem.

I believe there are many improvements to be made with ICEs
Better formulated fuels and engines that get greatly improved MPG I believe are easily obtainable
This isn’t what the oil industry wants though and they still are very powerful. Maybe not as powerful as this “green,clean movement” of EVs but I truly believe it will die before it succeeds. It may return in a future generation as it nears necessity

Now as far as overcoming temps I believe this will be a very difficult challenge especially for the cold. Without spending more and more power to protect the batteries I believe Mother Nature will win

[Riverbug]

The easy answer is that the car's cooling/heating system keeps the battery pack within a safe temperature range.

More specifically; when the vehicle is charging, heat is being generated by the internal resistance of each battery cell, consequently, the cooling system is operating to pull that excess heat out of the battery pack. Interesting side note: I just read that several Teslas were recently spotted in Saudi Arabia for testing in 122F + heat.

In cold weather; the heating system is operating while the car is plugged in. Additionally, while the vehicle is actually charging the cells are generating heat so, the cooling system might also be operating in cold weather. After the car is charged, and it is still plugged in, the heating system would operate intermittently to keep the battery pack above freezing.

While the car is in operation, the battery pack probably creates enough internal heat to not require supplemental heat from the heating system in cold weather.

One thing to remember is that batteries can be discharged when they are cold, just not charged unless they are above freezing.

Thanks for the info. I believe I read that it is recommended by Battle Born and SOK not to discharge below -4F, so I guess that heater must use power from the battery itself while not plugged in; say in the parking lot at work in -15F or whatever? In which case, pretty clever. Otherwise, maybe it's a quick heater that only takes a short time to get to the appropriate temp before taking off?