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  1. #51
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Is a 48 Volt RV In Your Future?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    For Tesla the issue is reduced weight from reducing the size of all wiring, improved electrical performance, and reduced cooling requirements of the electronic components.

    RV OEMs would benefit from reduced weight, improved electronic component cooling (LCI One Control, Leveling Sensors, Refrigerator and water heater control boards, etc.), Higher energy efficiency of electric motors (think Furnace and Hydraulic Pump motor).

    Owners would benefit from having more on-board energy storage (50ah, 48v Lithium battery vs 50ah [usable] 12v, Lead Acid Battery), reduced weight of their RV (fuel savings), energy efficiency of on-board devices (motors, Inverters, Solar Controllers, etc.). Additionally, higher voltage would allow RV OEMs to create new devices that are not possible with the current 12 volt architecture.

    RV OEMs might also be "somewhat" forced into the 48v architecture because 12v components will become less and less available and more expensive because the automotive industry is moving to 48v. Additionally, 48v motors are probably cheaper because they take less internal windings/less copper to manufacture. Additionally, battery prices on a per amp basis will probably begin to favor 48 volts when compared to 12 volts.
    I understand why Tesla is doing it but the rv manufacturers won’t care nor will the auto manufacturers. The minuscule amount of weight saved is meaningless to them and the quality of products as we know now they don’t care about either

    The scale that the industry would be faced is huge
    This isn’t the same when they went from 6 to 12 volt
    There was quite a few less cars on the road

    I can’t imagine this change at all

    Won’t happen in this century

    I will agree that owners who depend on batteries to rv would benefit but that is a very very tiny corner of the rv market.
    I as well as most wouldn’t have a battery on board my trailer if I didn’t require it
    Last edited by NB Canada; 03-08-2023 at 12:57 PM.
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB Canada View Post
    I think there is a large gap between this tiny single axle concept being built and the ability to self park a 44 foot fifth wheel. The need isn’t there but who knows, Airstream might actually build one to sell but you can guarantee it will be north of 100k. Will someone want one, likely but most won’t
    The thing I don’t understand about this segment( EVs and alternative energy) why is it taking so long to develop it to a cost effective idea?
    They say we all will be driving EVs soon but where is the technology allowing that?
    They say it will come but why isn’t it here now?
    With todays computer modeling and 3 d printers R and D can take days when only 20-30 years ago would take years
    My answer is that it either can’t be done or no one wants it
    Yeah, definitely far away from self parking toy haulers, but it will come. Tesla (as much as I really don't have interests in owning a Tesla, I admire the technology) is working on the OTR trucks that have capability to auto parking trailers, so it's in the horizon, as silly as it sounds. Though, that horizon may be a decade + away.

    The reason the cost isn't coming down is (as you guessed it) the demand isn't there. When government entities FORCE things upon people, they are forced to pay whatever companies charge (look at insurance for a great example). The technology just isn't there. I feel sorry for these people living in rural California who will be forced to buy EV and have no infrastructure to handle EVs... they can't handle it NOW! It was not long ago that the state asked people not to charge the EVs... LOL

  3. #53
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB Canada View Post
    I understand why Tesla is doing it but the rv manufacturers won’t care nor will the auto manufacturers. The minuscule amount of weight saved is meaningless to them and the quality of products as we know now they don’t care about either

    The scale that the industry would be faced is huge
    This isn’t the same when they went from 6 to 12 volt
    There was quite a few less cars on the road

    I can’t imagine this change at all

    Won’t happen in this century

    I will agree that owners who depend on batteries to rv would benefit but that is a very very tiny corner of the rv market.
    I as well as most wouldn’t have a battery on board my trailer if I didn’t require it
    The change will be done because of cost and cost savings.

    There is over a mile of wires inside of most cars, if you can reduce the diameter of those wires by 4x, that not only adds up to a lot of weight savings, it also adds up to using a lot less Copper in that wiring. And, using 4x less Copper in wiring that is a mile long will save millions of dollars for the Auto Manufacturers. The RV manufacturers will look at the cost savings enjoyed by the Auto Industry because of the change to 48v and they will want in on those cost savings!

    It doesn't really matter how many cars are on the road now versus in the '60s when the change from 6v to 12v was made. If anything, it makes it more likely the change will happen because the more cars that are manufactured, the bigger the savings for the OEM.

    Modern RVs have a lot of wires in them and if RV manufacturers realize they can save $$ Thousands $$ of dollars by switching to smaller gauge wiring they will make the switch as soon as 48v devices become available. Truth-be-told, it won't take that much to switch an RV to 48 volt architecture...

    The running lights will already be switched to 48v because the Auto OEMs will have already made the switch. After the running lights, you will need to change the voltage in the electronic control boards (Central Command center, Leveling Control Module, Water heater and fridge control circuit boards), next you will have to switch the motors (Leveling/Hydraulic pump, Tongue Jack, Furnace, Water Pump, fans, Televator), the only thing left are the lights. Basically, not a very long list at all, switching to 48 volts would be easy for the RV industry.

    I would watch for Ford to announce that they are switching to 48v in their new, "blank sheet" EVs, followed by GM, BYD and Geely, other Chinese Automakers will follow BYD and Geely.

    I predict Ford will have a 48v EV out before 2030.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  4. #54
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ynot4me2 View Post
    Wow, I've managed to read through. To bad the EV subject took over most of the post. Funny how everyone gets really defensive when there's a change in the air, regardless of what that change is. When the internet was invented and they said that every house hold would have a connection, people screamed no way as we would have to re-wire the entire country.

    Anyway,

    I've read and see the advantages of 48v over 12v (smaller cables etc...) but is there any disadvantage other then changing/switching all of the appliances from 12v to 48v? Someone mentioned earlier that anything over 30DCv is dangerous and would require more protection. Will that protection addition offset the weight savings over todays 12v system?
    Any added protections required would be light weight plastic or vinyl boots used to cover battery posts or buss bars.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  5. #55
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Is a 48 Volt RV In Your Future?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    The change will be done because of cost and cost savings.

    There is over a mile of wires inside of most cars, if you can reduce the diameter of those wires by 4x, that not only adds up to a lot of weight savings, it also adds up to using a lot less Copper in that wiring. And, using 4x less Copper in wiring that is a mile long will save millions of dollars for the Auto Manufacturers. The RV manufacturers will look at the cost savings enjoyed by the Auto Industry because of the change to 48v and they will want in on those cost savings!

    It doesn't really matter how many cars are on the road now versus in the '60s when the change from 6v to 12v was made. If anything, it makes it more likely the change will happen because the more cars that are manufactured, the bigger the savings for the OEM.

    Modern RVs have a lot of wires in them and if RV manufacturers realize they can save $$ Thousands $$ of dollars by switching to smaller gauge wiring they will make the switch as soon as 48v devices become available. Truth-be-told, it won't take that much to switch an RV to 48 volt architecture...

    The running lights will already be switched to 48v because the Auto OEMs will have already made the switch. After the running lights, you will need to change the voltage in the electronic control boards (Central Command center, Leveling Control Module, Water heater and fridge control circuit boards), next you will have to switch the motors (Leveling/Hydraulic pump, Tongue Jack, Furnace, Water Pump, fans, Televator), the only thing left are the lights. Basically, not a very long list at all, switching to 48 volts would be easy for the RV industry.

    I would watch for Ford to announce that they are switching to 48v in their new, "blank sheet" EVs, followed by GM, BYD and Geely, other Chinese Automakers will follow BYD and Geely.

    I predict Ford will have a 48v EV out before 2030.
    I don’t buy the cost savings when they will have to make and stock double of all these parts
    Auto parts stores will have to double their retail space to sell both 12volt and 48 v parts
    They will never be able to phase out 12 volt stuff

    And the average vehicle only has 100 lbs of wiring in it. The weight savings is minor

    Btw why haven’t they done it if that is what they want?

    What are they waiting for?

    Why didn’t they do it 10 years ago?
    Last edited by NB Canada; 03-08-2023 at 04:22 PM.
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

  6. #56
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by House_of_Henniker View Post
    Another thing one has to look at, is how long can these batteries be charged and discharged before needing to be replaced, and what does that cost look like.
    There are a lot of people doing some fun high performance things with ev's. Although to a lot of us old guys, nothing sounds as great as an American muscle V8.
    For now, its a wait and see where the ev's are going from here.
    A 48v Lithium (LiFePo4) battery installed in an RV would probably out last the coach. Additionally, RVs would generally not "Tax" the battery's capability, so, they will enjoy an even longer life because of lower demands on the battery.

    Generally speaking, Lithium batteries don't "die suddenly", they tend to "get weak" by not being able to store as much energy as when new.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  7. #57
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB Canada View Post
    I don’t buy the cost savings when they will have to make and stock double of all these parts
    Auto parts stores will have to double their retail space to sell both 12volt and 48 v parts
    They will never be able to phase out 12 volt stuff

    Btw why haven’t they done it if that is what they want?

    What are they waiting for?

    Why didn’t they do it 10 years ago?
    The auto manufacturers will do it because it saves them money, a lot of money!

    They haven't done it because nobody wanted to be first!

    Now that somebody will be first, the others will follow their lead.

    Why now and not 10 years ago? One word Tesla.

    Tesla looked at the 12v system and determined that "12 volt is Stupid" (direct quote from Elon).

    Tesla decided that the lower cost of 48 volts was worth making the switch now and into the future.
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  8. #58
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    The auto manufacturers will do it because it saves them money, a lot of money!

    They haven't done it because nobody wanted to be first!

    Now that somebody will be first, the others will follow their lead.

    Why now and not 10 years ago? One word Tesla.

    Tesla looked at the 12v system and determined that "12 volt is Stupid" (direct quote from Elon).

    Tesla decided that the lower cost of 48 volts was worth making the switch now and into the future.
    There are a million other ways to “save” money than spending billions in research and development and retooling to switch all production over to a different voltage
    A vehicle only has 100 lbs of wiring so weight savings isn’t a concern
    Imo it won’t happen anytime soon if even this century

    Tesla is Tesla. They are an EV only company. Who knows if they will even be here in 10 years
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

  9. #59
    Site Sponsor SolarPoweredRV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB Canada View Post
    There are a million other ways to “save” money than spending billions in research and development and retooling to switch all production over to a different voltage
    A vehicle only has 100 lbs of wiring so weight savings isn’t a concern
    Imo it won’t happen anytime soon if even this century

    Tesla is Tesla. They are an EV only company. Who knows if they will even be here in 10 years
    Well, it is way more than 100 lbs of wire in these vehicles, Ford CEO, Jim Farley, recently admitted that they had an extra 70 lbs of wiring in the Lightning (probably due to taking an "off-the-shelf" wiring harness for the standard F150).

    That is 70 lbs of excess wiring, that doesn't even take into consideration reducing all the remaining wiring by 4x.

    I think it took 7 years to switch from 6v to 12v in the '60s, and that was because all the OEMs were actually building the components. Now, all the parts are built by suppliers, none of the OEMs manufacture any of the electric/electronic components, they all come from suppliers. To make the switch all the OEM has to do is say "I want 48 volt motors" and they will get 48v motors. All the research will be done by the suppliers, all the OEMs need to do is design the vehicle for 48v architecture.

    By-the-way, suppliers save money because 48v components will be cheaper to make, i.e.: a 48v motor has more torque than a 12v motor with the same windings, consequently, the 48v motor can have fewer windings which will save the supplier money.

    As far as Tesla being around in 10 years, I am concerned about GM and Toyota. Tesla just announced a revolutionary manufacturing method that will allow them to manufacture vehicles at 50% lower costs. How are the legacy OEMs going to compete with that?
    David and Peggy
    2019 Ford F350 Lariat, 6.7L Diesel, Dually, Long Bed
    Running with 20k Reese Goosebox (Love It) and Ford Factory "Puck" system.
    Stopping with 8,000 lb Disc Brakes and Titan Hydraulic over Electric Brakes system.
    Powering all this fun with 1200 Watts of Solar, two Tesla, Model S, battery modules, 24 volt Victron Inverter.
    2018 Solitude 310 GK

  10. #60
    Site Sponsor NB Canada's Avatar
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    Is a 48 Volt RV In Your Future?

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarPoweredRV View Post
    Well, it is way more than 100 lbs of wire in these vehicles, Ford CEO, Jim Farley, recently admitted that they had an extra 70 lbs of wiring in the Lightning (probably due to taking an "off-the-shelf" wiring harness for the standard F150).

    That is 70 lbs of excess wiring, that doesn't even take into consideration reducing all the remaining wiring by 4x.

    I think it took 7 years to switch from 6v to 12v in the '60s, and that was because all the OEMs were actually building the components. Now, all the parts are built by suppliers, none of the OEMs manufacture any of the electric/electronic components, they all come from suppliers. To make the switch all the OEM has to do is say "I want 48 volt motors" and they will get 48v motors. All the research will be done by the suppliers, all the OEMs need to do is design the vehicle for 48v architecture.

    By-the-way, suppliers save money because 48v components will be cheaper to make, i.e.: a 48v motor has more torque than a 12v motor with the same windings, consequently, the 48v motor can have fewer windings which will save the supplier money.

    As far as Tesla being around in 10 years, I am concerned about GM and Toyota. Tesla just announced a revolutionary manufacturing method that will allow them to manufacture vehicles at 50% lower costs. How are the legacy OEMs going to compete with that?
    Maybe in an EV they have more wire but I thought this thread was about ICE vehicles and trailers?
    The avg vehicle has 120 lbs of wire total. A trailer would have a fraction of a fraction of that

    And suppliers will not do this conversion without charging them extra. That is capitalism and is great

    Once the hype of “saving the world” ends and the cost advantages are not realized imo the EV world will shrink. Will it be viable sometime? Maybe but not while I am alive nor likely my kids
    The easiest way to make a change is to fix a problem
    Right now there isn’t a problem with 12volt systems
    The consumer won’t care. They just want it to work
    There won’t be a cost savings to the customer in any way

    “Tesla just announced a way to reduce cost by 50 percent”??? Why now. What changed in 2023 that they didn’t know in 2021?
    So the price of a Tesla will be cut in half?
    The Legacy OEMs will still be cheaper. They will not be affected
    2021 Imagine 2400 BH
    2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 Crew 1840lb payload

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