315 RLTS Weight Issues

[classicrockguy]

Hi all. I am a new Reflection 315RLTS owner, and am just now getting in to towing-related "optimizations". I bought this trailer at the end of last season (late 2022), trading up from a much smaller Forest River Rockwood Mini Lite 2104s. I used the new GD just enough to test things out and worked out a good number of "new trailer bugs" before putting it in storage for the winter. Now my wife and I are getting ready for a "real" trip this summer to escape the desert heat for nearly 2 months. Among other things, I have finally had the time to start optimizing the hitch setup, put it on a CAT scale, etc. Unfortunately, I was surprised by 2 immediate issues:

1) The 14,000lb Equalizer hitch the dealer sold to me turned out to be a 12,000lb model (I just now noticed).
2) Tongue weight w/o any personal items or consumables was 1,520lbs, well over the 1,200lb limit of the "wrong" hitch, and still over the 1,400lb limit of what I thought was the "right" hitch.

I realized I had some work to do. I contacted the dealer about the "wrong" hitch, and he agreed to make it right. The good news is I now have a 14,000lb equalizer hitch (1,400lb tongue) as was originally promised and paid for. The bad news is that still is an issue with this model trailer per my initial CAT scale weights. So, I set off to try and understand this situation, and to see what might be done. An "easy" solution would be to buy a beefier hitch (~ $900 wasted), but first I wanted to understand the issue and see if the 1,400lb tongue weight was realistic on this trailer (spoiler alert, it is really not).


My first step was to contact Grand Design for the factory weight sheet, as well as a drawing showing the locations of the various tanks. Both were provided quickly, so kudos to GD for living up to their rep for good service. With the factory weights in hand (including side-to-side), I set about trying to reconcile why the trailer was so much heavier (especially the tongue) than I expected. Turns out, I was able to do this pretty closely by simply listing all of the items that were added since the factory weigh. I catalogued a number of items, but the biggies were as follows (total/tongue):

1) batteries - 85lbs/77lbs
2) RV'ing and camping gear stowed in the front pass-thru - 85lbs/62lbs
3) propane bottles filled - 60lbs/56lbs
4) dealer-added front a/c - 85lbs/50lbs
5) RV'ing and camping gear stowed under the bed slide - 60lbs/34lbs
6) RV'ing and camping gear stowed in the front closet - 40lbs/29lbs
7) MORryde 50amp cable reel installed in front pass-thru - 25lbs/18lbs (seemed like a good idea at the time)
8) mattress upgrade - 40lbs/21lbs
9) other misc

From the factory weight sheet: 9,622lbs/1,158lbs. My first CAT weight: 10,280lbs/1,520lbs. In total, all of this added 658lbs/362lbs. Gulp. This thing isn't even fully loaded for travel yet!


My second step was to see if I could "rearrange" things in the trailer a bit to improve things. Turns out, through several steps I was able to get my next CAT scale weight to 10,400lbs/1,340lbs. I call this my "as stored" weight since it still does not include personal items and consumables. Unfortunately, I had to make a few compromises to make this work:

1) added 2 x 50lb wake boat ballast bags behind the rear sofa - 100lbs/(56lbs) (ok, this might be controversial, but it does not exceed any weight restrictions and it works)
2) moved 2 heavy "zero gravity" camp chairs from the front pass-thru to the rear sofa - 0lbs/(44lbs)
3) traded 2 x 60lb propane tanks for 2 x 20lb - (38lbs)/(36lbs) (we always stay in nice RV parks, so propane refills are usually readily available, and we don't winter camp)
4) added a 4' folding table stored sideways in front of rear sofa - 20lbs/(9lbs)
5) other misc

Overall, I was able to drop 180lbs off the tongue. For those worried about keeping tongue weight high enough relative to gross weight, at this point my tongue weight is 1,340/10,400 = 12.9%.


Final step was to go through our loading plan for personal items and consumables for final travel weights. A big help is adding 2 x eBikes to the rear hitch, as well as loading the pantry which is also behind the axles center. This all helps offset additional personal items/clothing/etc. in the front bedroom and closet. In the end, I should be a tad over 11,000lbs/1,350lbs at drive out. That's 1,350/11,000 = 12.3%. I also checked axle loads side-to-side. Driver's side is about 52% and passenger side is about 48%. Not perfect 50/50, but a little better than the 53/47 the trailer came from the factory with. On another note ... no way can I haul more than a few gallons charge in the black tank, and <10gals in the fresh water tank for travel. And, forget about adding a W/D in the front closet!

I've attached a graphic that may help others who own this particular trailer decide how to manage weight. For anyone considering buying this model, strongly suggest a 16,000lb/1,600lb hitch vs. the 14k one I have. (I will probably upgrade next season so I can undue a few of my "adjustments" for a bit more convenience.)

 

[classicrockguy]

Attached is the factory weight sheet for anyone interested. Keep in mind this is specific to my 315RLTS as built from the factory. Your mileage may vary.

I do find the paragraph at the bottom amusing, considering the "side-to-side" factory weights look pretty unbalanced to me. Add to that most of the storage on this floorplan is on the "already heavy" side, so good luck with "balancing side-to-side".

 

[Redapple63]

Hi Classicrockguy, Welcome to the forum! Great floorplan. I have the same floorplan in 2020 vintage. I have verry little faith in dealers, oh I know there are good ones out there, just too many bad experiences. So for your tongue weight. I think we all struggle with this particular item.

We had similar issues figuring it out. We did not get a hitch from the dealer for that exact reason. They do not do what they say or what you pay for, but I digress.

Here is what we did.

1. I went off of the GVWR which is the maximum the rig can weigh. For me it is 10995, for you, I believe they upped it to 11295. Take 15% of that (worst case scenario) and the tongue weight should be 1694 pounds for me it would be 1650. These trailers do run heavy on tongue weight.
I then purchased an Equalizer 1400 lb figuring it would never hit GVWR. After about 4 tows, I upgraded to 1600 lb hitch. My last cat scale showed 1480 and i was running right around 10800 pounds. I also promise that the dealer added ac weighs in at more than 50 pounds.
2. I also did a similar exercise as you weighing my stuff. Here is the rub with that. YOu should only weight stuff that will always be part of the rig, everything else is variable based on each trip. Further, each tank weighs more than 30 pounds. Figure closer to 55 pounds each full. Depending on battery type and number they can run anywhere from 24 pounds each to 65 pounds each or more. My Lead Acid batteries (2) weight in at 130 pounds.
3. You should NOT add ballast to your rig. Getting yourself within wight is an ongoing exercise based on how you want to camp and what you consider essential.
4. I did have to adjust the height of my rig.

My suggestion to you is to travel with minimal stuff for the first few trips. That will help you decide what you consider essential, including clothing, gear and food.

Other things you can do is to potentially move items from your rig to the back of the truck. Yes, it all equals payload, but saves you the headache of tongue weight challenges. Things i keep in the back of my truck are travel tables, gas grill and flat top, spare propane bottles, chairs, generator, fire pit.

Good Luck!
Bill

 

[classicrockguy]

I appreciate the reply.

I also promise that the dealer added ac weighs in at more than 50 pounds.

I calculated 2 numbers ... the first is the total weight of the item. The second is the effect on the tongue weight. The tongue weight would only be 100% of the total weight if the item were directly over the tongue. So, in the a/c example, the total weight of the item is 85lbs. The amount that sits on the tongue is about 50lbs. The rest is on the trailer axles. That's why I included my little diagram ... so I can "ratio" the weight distribution axles vs. tongue based on the location of the item. If the item is behind the axles, then you have to do a "see-saw" calc to see how much the tongue weight goes down. Turns out my calcs were very close when I went to the CAT scale.

As I mentioned, next season I will probably bite the bullet and get the bigger hitch.

 

[Redapple63]

I appreciate the reply.



I calculated 2 numbers ... the first is the total weight of the item. The second is the effect on the tongue weight. The tongue weight would only be 100% of the total weight if the item were directly over the tongue. So, in the a/c example, the total weight of the item is 85lbs. The amount that sits on the tongue is about 50lbs. The rest is on the trailer axles. That's why I included my little diagram ... so I can "ratio" the weight distribution axles vs. tongue based on the location of the item. If the item is behind the axles, then you have to do a "see-saw" calc to see how much the tongue weight goes down. Turns out my calcs were very close when I went to the CAT scale.

As I mentioned, next season I will probably bite the bullet and get the bigger hitch.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes much more sense. These trailers are for sure tongue heavy. Many on this forum are running ProPride/Hensley while others are using Blue Ox with 2k bars. Now that I am dialed in it tows beautifully.

Like I said we did exactly what you did with weighing our stuff, which is an awesome idea btw, then we determined what was important to us. I am sure you will go through that too as you travel more.

Our tongue and overall weight has been pretty consistent throughout our travels. I am sure you will get to the sweet spot.

Go with the 16k Equalizer and it will be fine.

Bill

 

[classicrockguy]

1. I went off of the GVWR which is the maximum the rig can weigh. For me it is 10995, for you, I believe they upped it to 11295. Take 15% of that (worst case scenario) and the tongue weight should be 1694 pounds for me it would be 1650. These trailers do run heavy on tongue weight.

I love this tidbit. A simple way to size the hitch (and the TV, for that matter). For me, call it 1,700lbs. Even the 16,000lbs/1,600lbs hitch would be a bit limiting (but much more manageable than the 14k hitch).

Also agree with your comment re: dealers. Must be some good ones out there. I have dealt with exactly 3 dealers in the last 4 years, and my experience overall has been very negative. I try to do my research up front, but I've still been burned. Actually, the first time I contacted the dealer on the hitch issue, the response was basically the 12k hitch was fine since the trailer GVW maxes at 11,295lbs. "We sell these all the time, they are fine." No consideration for tongue weight whatsoever, and yet as I am learning it is often THE major issue with these rigs (both for hitch sizing and TV available capacity). The dealer should have not let me out the door w/o the 16k hitch variant (or at a minimum strong advice on the proper hitch sizing).

Maybe this tongue weight stuff is all well known, and I am just slow to the party. Regardless, I would encourage anyone considering the TT world pay close attention to this issue BEFORE jumping in.

 

[kb0zke]

We have a 2022 version, and while at Blue Ox last week we had them weigh the tongue - 1900 pounds! I have 1000 pound bars now, so new bars will be added ASAP. Unfortunately, the factory didn't have a set on hand, or I would have snagged them.

Our trailer tows well behind our F350, so it will be interesting to see what the heavier bars do for it. There was some wind today, but I didn't think anything about it. We were going straight down the Interstate at 60 mph. A semi flew past me and pulled back in front. I thought he was going to tip over! He may have been empty, or maybe just trying to change lanes too quickly, or maybe the wind caught him just right. I was already on the brakes. He never actually got the tires off the highway, but it sure looked like he was going to. Glad I didn't have to see how well my truck and trailer would handle a sudden lane change!

 

[classicrockguy]

Wow, that much tongue weight would make me start to worry about the trailer frame and/or the coupler itself. My frame is stamped 14,000lbs max. No markings for max coupler weight. I’d be curious if there is a limit there.

You must have a lot of weight up front. Lot’s of water? W/D? Also, where are you on axle weight? That’s another possible issue, especially on the street side which is very heavy from the factory. Wouldn't be hard to exceed 5,200lbs on that side. Might be worth checking.

I have been looking at the Blue Ox 20k hitch. I may go that route instead of the Equalizer 16k upgrade. I don’t want to fight this weight issue, at least not with the hitch.

 

[315RLTSinPA]

LOL Welcome to life of owning a 315RLTS. I'm right there with you at 1900lb tongue weight. That's with no washer and dryer and very little water. Not sure how some are at 1400lbs.

 

[Redapple63]

We did a 2000 mile trip through 5 states and I weighed it twice on that trip. My max tongue weight was 1480. We have no washer/dryer and do keep a bunch of stuff in the truck bed rather than the pass through or in the rig. I can easily see the tongue weight getting that high

Bill

 

[classicrockguy]

My last CAT scale was 8,200# (truck, only) and 9,540# (truck with trailer on the hitch and no bars). That's 1,340# tongue weight. Prior to my "adjustments" I was at 1,520# tongue weight. (I listed these figures in my previous post.)

FWIW, I talked with GD about this overall issue, and they basically said something to the tune of "it's the owner's problem to deal with weight". Generally not helpful, but I went after it and got the tongue weight down below 1,400# w/o breaking any other weight or "safe towing" limits (eg tires, axles, etc. and tongue weight is still >12%). That's with everything except clothes, personal items, and consumables (namely food). With the eBikes on the trailer receiver (about 120# way on the back of the see-saw) and most of the consumables over or behind the axles center, I can offset personal gear/clothes/etc. in the front bedroom and stay under 1,400# tongue weight for final travel weight. Of course, I have very little in the front pass through and under the bed and gave up 30# propane tanks for 20# propane tanks, so this is not really an optimal solution. I guess you could say it can be done on this model, but a beefier hitch is a way better solution for sure.

For those at 1,900# tongue weight and using 2,000# WD bars (which kicks a fair amount of weight back to the trailer axles as well as to the front wheels of the TV), I'd be concerned about side-to-side loading on the trailer axles. This model is very heavy on the street side from the factory (my factory weight sheet is attached on a previous post). Max axles load is 10,400#, if and only if the load is evenly distributed. I talked with GD and Dexter, and both informed that axle load limits are total for both sides, but 1/2 the total for EACH side is a limit, as well. My newbee experience and info with this trailer says the street side of the axles could very easily be overloaded given the high initial factory weight on that side, as well as the addition of consumables in the street side kitchen slide and gear stored in the street side bedroom slide. Add to that pretty much 50/50 of everything else (water, gear in the pass-thru, etc.), and also weight transferred to the trailer axles via the WD hitch, and this thing could well be over 5,200# on the street side axles while still being under total GVW of 11,295# (2022 model). Perhaps something to consider.

The issue of coupler max tongue weight still bothers me. Everything else in this "hitch limits" game is 100% gross/10% tongue. Some couplers I see online are rated exactly this way, as well. However, most only have gross weight ratings. Some online "experts" say anything 10-15% of gross is ok if nothing is otherwise specified, but where is that actually stated in any specs? It is certainly not true for other hitch components. Seems odd to me. The coupler on my trailer is clearly stamped 14,000lb gross. It is mute on any rating for tongue weight. Is it 1,400# max tongue weight? If not, then what is it? Is it 15% of 14,000#, which is 2,100#? I would love to hear from someone who has researched this particular issue and knows the real answer. I can find nothing useful online in my searches.

I may sound anal about all of this, but I am just trying to get myself educated.

 

[markandkim]

I use the 14000# WDH on mine. It tows great. Im loaded for fulltiming too.

 

[classicrockguy]

I just got off the phone with a Lippert technical support rep. I asked the specific question about the tongue weight limits on their couplers. He read from an internal Lippert document that their couplers are designed for tongue weights ranging from 9-15% of the stamped gvw rating. (He was unable to send me a copy as it was marked as an internal document.)

In the case of my trailer which the coupler is stamped 14,000lbs, that design range is 1,260-2,100lbs.

Further, he assured me that the entire chassis is rigorously designed between Lippert and the trailer builder with exact floorplans and weights in mind.

So, it appears that towing this trailer up to 2,100lbs tongue weight is within design limits of the coupler/chassis, as long as everything else is also within design limits (TV, hitch, axles/wheels/tires, etc.). For me, this means I will upgrade the hitch at some point (Blue Ox 20,000#/2,000# probably), and stop grinding on keeping the tongue weight below 1,400#.

 

[gabathey]

Good research and data. Tongue weight seems to be the recurring theme of concerns on our floorplan. We've added the split washer/dryer specifically because of the street vs curb weights. The plumbing is on the street side, so a combo unit would all be on the already heavier side.

Interestingly, one of the simplest ways to impact the tongue weight is to raise or lower it some. I wish I had though that through earlier on. A few months ago we added Roadmasters slipper springs/shocks setup. What I love about that is that the side to side bounciness due to uneven street vs curb weights is gone and breaking is smoother. After loading up for our first trip out after the upgrade, I leveled the trailer front to axels for towing and weighed in. Noticed more proposing - not good. Tongue weight was only 980lbs!! Dropped the hitch 2" and brought back up a bit with the trucks air bags. Tongue weight now back to our normal 1,200-1,400 lbs as before the upgrade.

Like others have said, I keep chairs, tools, and other heavy stuff in the truck bed - makes the trailer easier to balance.

 

[kkmacs]

I have the same rig and my tongue weight is 1520 before putting food and clothing in. I do put chairs and a bunch of other stuff in the truck bed. I use the Blue Ox 2000 and I also have a RAM 3500. I have been quite happy with the Blue Ox and have learned how to easily set it up. A couple questions for the group for those using the Blue Ox and if driving a newer RAM. First, I find that I have to put the bars at the 10th link to really have a very smooth ride with no sway even with wind. Blue Ox recommends RAM owners set the ball 2” higher than the hitch. Seems to me that made sense on a RAM 2500 with the coil springs (my previous truck) as that truck dropped almost 3 inches when the weight was place on the ball (and before weight distribution). With my new 3500, and the leaf suspension, the truck drops barely over an inch when I put the ball on. Should I consider dropping the ball back down to level with the trailer? Second, I have had issues with the GD brakes (I have the ABS) locking up when coming to a full stop (lock up at about 10mph). It was quite severe with my 2500 RAM and not quite as bad with this new truck. Anyone else have this challenge?

 

[classicrockguy]

A bit of additional data now that we are finally out on the road …

”Ready-to-roll” CAT scale weight for the entire rig …



This is very close to my spreadsheet predictions after all of my song-and -dance to manage weight. Some observations …

- Truck is fine. Axles, GVW, etc.



- Hitch is very close to 1,400lb max tongue (calculated, but very close based on my previous actual CAT weights and subsequent adjustments for added cargo).

- Trailer axles are fine overall at 9,980lbs vs 10,400lbs max. However, based on factory weight sheet and subsequent calcs for where cargo is loaded the street side is about 52% or very close to the 5,200lbs limit side-to-side. Curb side is therefore about 4,800lbs which is 400lbs less on that side. Interestingly, tire temps on the street side have been running about 5-7 degrees warmer while towing. Could be a coincidence, but also could be indicative of the higher weight on that side.

- Trailer gross weight is 9,980lbs + 1,400lbs = about 11,400lbs, which is a bit over the 11,295lbs GVW max of the trailer. Close enough that I’m not worried, but over none-the-less. Makes me really wonder about those seeing significantly higher tongue weights, and where they are on overall vs max GVW.

I call this overall good as we proceed on our big summer trip. However, the overall issue on weights on this 315rlts remains. We are VERY carefully loaded, and have done things (like downgrading to 20lb lp tanks and putting VERY little in front trailer storage) to get there. For me, a glaring deficiency in this model is the 5,200lbs axles. Rims and tires are fine, axles should be 6,000lbs (or at least something more than 5,200lbs). GVW should also be higher. It is what it is, so buyer and “loader” beware!