Cayenne Towing Imagine 17 MKE

dkayak

Advanced Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Posts
80
We're towing our Imagine 17 MKE with a 2017 Cayenne and a Fastway e2 round bar WDH. On our last trip we made 3 passes over the Cat scale to see how our weights worked out fully loaded. This photo shows the 3 scale results in blue and the calculated values in the green cells, along with trailer/TV capacities.

Cat scale 30April21.jpg

Tongue weight is our limiting factor, as expected. The Touareg-Q7-Cayenne platform allows 617 or 770 lb, varying by model and year for no clear reason. They're all rated to tow 7700 lb. I spent an evening browsing 60 pages of threads on it on the Airstream Forum. My take is 617 lb is the European standard 8% maximum, and 770 lb is a 10% value often assigned to accommodate the US goal of 10% minimum. It's such a mess that VW will even send you a new sticker upon request to "upgrade" your receiver from 617 to 770 lb. Anyway, I'd resolved to live within the 617 lb limit with occasional excursions closer to 770 lb, as needed.

The scale results suggest this won't be necessary as we're only at 560 lb. Now we'll probably shift some gear out of the TV and into the pass through to put that weight on the tongue rather than directly over the rear axle. We've had no issues with sway, even in 18 mph winds gusting to 25 mph or so. It pulls well, easily accelerates up 6% grades, and braking feels strong too. We're only pulling 70% of the Cayenne's rated towing capacity.

But I do have some questions on weight distribution. Looking at the table above, you'll see the hitch redistributed only about 80 lb to the front axle. Somehow I'd expected to see a greater weight shift. However, we're about 330 lb under both the front and rear axle weight limits. The rear fender is about 3/4" lower than unhitched and the front is largely unchanged (measurement was tough due to an uneven concrete floor near a drain). After installing the bars, the rear lifts enough to reduce the sag by more than 50%, which is what Fastway says is the goal. Here's a photo.

IMG-0950.jpg

Maybe this is as good as it gets? Or should we consider an Andersen or other premium WDH? The Andersen has the advantage of being lighter and probably puts the ball a bit closer to the bumper.
 
My take is the E2 is an entry level wdh. The Anderson is a superior wdh and much lighter which will lighten the load.
 
[MENTION=37517]dkayak[/MENTION]
Excellent job with your weights and analysis!

I don’t have any experience with the E2 but unless you want the lightness of an Andersen WDH, it appears you have things dialed in. Although you are concerned with the 80# weight transfer, you mentioned the front wheel well looking good and no sway with the high winds you experienced, so maybe leave things alone for awhile. When I clicked on your photo it looks pretty level to me.

Another thing to consider, and I admit this can be subjective, does the weight of the steering feel about the same pulling the trailer compared to no trailer.
 
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I personally don’t think his hitch is doing anything

Only 80 pounds transferred and zero to the trailer axles?


2021 Imagine 2400 BH
2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 crew
 
[MENTION=37517]dkayak[/MENTION]
Excellent job with your weights and analysis!

I don’t have any experience with the E2 but unless you want the lightness of an Andersen WDH, it appears you have things dialed in. Although you are concerned with the 80# weight transfer, you mentioned the front wheel well looking good and no sway with the high winds you experienced, so maybe leave things alone for awhile. When I clicked on your photo it looks pretty level to me.

Another thing to consider, and I admit this can be subjective, does the weight of the steering feel about the same pulling the trailer compared to no trailer.

Steering feels "planted" rather than "floaty".
 
Steering feels "planted" rather than "floaty".

As to the lack of weight transfer does your Cayenne have an air suspension sensor system? If yes, maybe that system is trying to keep the car level. I don’t have experience as an owner just based on what I’ve read here and there.
 
I should have noted that it does not have air suspension, so any leveling is being done by the hitch. I will say those (800 lb) load bars are carrying a noticeable load (speaking as a metallurgical engineer). They're bending elastically like big springs, and as noted before the rear is visibly lifted after putting them in place using the tongue jack. I don't have access to the measurements, which are in the unit in storage, but they reduce the rear sag by over 50%.
 
As noted by others it doesn’t appear the E2 hitch is doing much other than lifting the rear of the car. It should act as a fulcrum that pivots weight to the steer and trailer axles simultaneously.

It seems you have done a lot of research, are other Cayenne owners using an E2 with better success?
 
I spent an evening browsing 60 pages of threads on it on the Airstream Forum.

I was curious and think I just came across the same thread you referred to on airforums.com “Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners”. It’s now up to 65 pages.

I browsed the first couple then went to the last 4 or 5 pages. Many different WDHs being used. There was also many mentions of CanAm that got good reviews for fitting WDHs for these vehicles. Some said if you email Andy T. at CanAm he will tell you which WDHs he recommends to his customers. Maybe you have already considered that but just a thought.
 
I was curious and think I just came across the same thread you referred to on airforums.com “Porsche Cayenne, VW Touareg, Audi Q7 owners”. It’s now up to 65 pages.

I browsed the first couple then went to the last 4 or 5 pages. Many different WDHs being used. There was also many mentions of CanAm that got good reviews for fitting WDHs for these vehicles. Some said if you email Andy T. at CanAm he will tell you which WDHs he recommends to his customers. Maybe you have already considered that but just a thought.

Congratulations on not being pulled down the Airstream Forum rabbit hole! Emailing Andy is an excellent idea. Before doing so I think I'll remeasure everything on a very flat surface. I might also revisit the Cat scale. As the woodworkers say, "measure twice, cut once". Meanwhile, I'm reasonably level and both the front and rear axles are at 90% of their respective weight limits. We'll test the setup on another trip or two. As the Brits say "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". OK, done with cliches. Last trip we were passed by a longer Imagine that was swaying all over the place in a cross wind. A friend following with his 5th wheel called me called on the phone to point it out. He said we were tracking steady though.

I'm also looking more closely into what to expect from a WDH and found this interesting description on another old thread:
"Here's how I describe the weight distributing hitch . . . . Ron and I hitch up his trailer. The rear of the truck sits way low, the front is way high, and the front wheels don't steer or brake worth a darn 'cuz of this. We stick a long pry bar into the back end of his truck frame and pull up hard. The rear rises and the front drops. I have Ron trot along holding that bar up as I drive...the truck drives really well now, but Ron is getting tired. He chains the bar to the trailer tongue so he can take a breather. This works OK on the straights, but is a big problem on curves. We figure out a pivot system for the point the bar attaches to the truck. It turns well, but is really bumpy. Ron's Mrs. says to use spring steel bars. Duh!...Why didn't we think of that? Ron and I, and his Mrs., just invented the weight distributing hitch."

This is a better illustration than any of the engineering diagrams out there. You're lifting the rear by bracing off the A frame with a flexible pry bar. It seems like if you get both the TV and trailer level again, you've succeeded. Weight shifts are just an outcome of leveling things out and probably depend on the suspension design, stiffness, the lengths of the various levers involved, and both the TV and trailer weights. That's why I'm interested in getting a better set of fender height measurements and then maybe also another trip to the scales.

I also found an error in my spreadsheet in the cells that total the Cayenne axle weights. We're only 245 lb under the GVW limit, NOT 805 lb under! That makes more sense since we're 338 lb and 326 lb under the front and rear axle limits respectively. Here's the corrected table.

RV weights 30April21.jpg
 
Congratulations on not being pulled down the Airstream Forum rabbit hole! Emailing Andy is an excellent idea. Before doing so I think I'll remeasure everything on a very flat surface. I might also revisit the Cat scale.

Great WDH explanation and simple to understand! :)

You are doing a good job being proactive with your weights & measures for the sake of safety which is important. Good idea to do some more measurements before throwing in the towel on the E2. It does appear to be giving you good sway control but with the tightly-tuned suspension of the Cayenne, you may actually not be able to transfer much more weight. I guess this is another place where Andy T. might be helpful. I saw that he regularly posts on the thread you referenced.

Given one of your concerns is not maxing the tongue weight, you might consider purchasing a Sherline tongue weight scale. I have had one for years and use it on/off when I’m dialing in or rearranging weight in the trailer. It is accurate and saves from going to the CAT scale each time.
https://www.sherline.com/product/sherline-trailer-tongue-weight-scale/

I hope that you give an update with your findings and perhaps what Andy T. recommends for the benefit of future Grand Design members that have a similar tow vehicle.
 
We did some careful measurements of fender height today, using a yardstick instead of a wobbly tape measure and we were on more level surfaces. My wife and I carefully sighted as precisely as possible and agreed on each height to within about 1/16". Then we averaged the right and left sides since they sometimes differed slightly. We had a full tank of gas, no passengers, and the rig was generally loaded to camp but dry and without food. It was originally set up by General RV in new but empty condition. Looking back, I believe they came fairly close, but loading it up required an adjustment.

We measured the Cayenne alone (with shank and load bars) and repeated measurements hitched, then with load bars in place. The front fenders didn't drop at least halfway back to unloaded height as Fastway recommends, so we then raised the L-brackets on the A-Frame by one bolt hole (1") and repeated our measurements. Here's the result of the day’s work..

WDH adjustment.jpg

Unloaded, the Cayenne started out 1/4” higher in the rear, probably because it was empty and it's designed to carry its cargo more toward the rear. Hitching the trailer dropped the rear and raised the front, as expected. Then adding the load bars dropped the front somewhat (buy not by 50%) and raise the rear similarly. Unbolting and raising the L-brackets, which lifts the rear of the load bars by 1", brought the Cayenne to a perfectly level condition. The trailer still looks level as well --- my phone says the A-frame is at zero degrees on a reasonably level parking lot.

We'll make another stop by the scale next time out, but I'm confident the WDH is dialed in perfectly. It feels a bit more planted but was never bad before, maybe because we're not pushing our towing capacity limits. The bars make more noise turning because there's more force pressing them down onto the L-brackets, so sway control should be even better. I'll post our final weight distribution numbers when available.
 
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Yesterday we towed the trailer to Discount Tire to change the Westlakes to Goodyear Endurance. Along the way we stopped at the same Cat Scale we used for the data at the top of this thread. Unlike the first trip, the trailer had no bottled water, no food in the frig, and the Cayenne had no bikes or tools in the back, so overall things were a couple hundred pounds lighter this time. Here's the result, comparing the original WDH setting to our current setup with the spring bars raised 1" (as described in the post above).

26May Cat scale.jpg

The tongue weight of 600 lb is a bit higher than the previous 560 lb because the missing food and six gallons of water rode at the back of the trailer last time, lightening the tongue. The spring bars put 60 lb (net) of the tongue weight on the steering axle and 140 lb onto the trailer axle, leaving 400 lb on the Cayenne's rear axle. Note that the shift in steering axle weight from just hitched to installing the spring bars is 300 lb! We're still 158 lb under the Cayenne's front axle rating because ours has a V6 but it's designed to accommodate a V8.

Our WDH shank, head, ball, and spring bars weigh 66 lb. From what I've read, this 66 lb should be added to the measured tongue weight at the coupler for comparison to the Cayenne's 616 lb (or 770 lb?) TW limit, since that's what rides on the receiver. Loading for most of our trips will give us about 550 lb tongue weight, so adding the WDH weight puts us right at the lower of the (ambiguous) TW limits and at 10% of trailer weight. Additional loading consists of 100 lb on the bumper (for a receiver, rack, and two 19 lb bikes), typically 6 gallon jugs of water in the shower, 30 lb of stuff in the frig, and 80-100 lb of gear in the pass through. We now have 400 lb of unused cargo capacity in the back of the TV, though I can't imagine carrying over 100 lb there, maybe just firewood & misc stuff. Whatever we add to the back of the TV will probably bring the steering axle closer to its unhitched weight.

As noted in another recent thread, SUV's are typically limited by tongue weight and that's certainly our situation. Overall maybe this is as good as it gets, with the Cayenne perfectly level and plenty of margin for additional cargo in either it or the trailer, as long as we keep an eye on trailer fore-aft load distribution. My wife noted we've eliminated traces of porpoising, but also that the ride is a bit harsher. It feels very solid and stable, but is now more truck-like than SUV-like. The only other change I can think of would be to replace our 800 lb spring bars with 600 lb bars, but would this even make a perceptible difference?

FWIW, I ran across a useful tool, an online calculator that makes interpreting scale results easy. Travel Trailer Weights
 
[MENTION=37517]dkayak[/MENTION]

So from your latest weighs (I think I read them right) this is what I get:

(Steer axle, drive axle, trailer axle)
Weigh ticket 1: 2840, 3040, 4780 (WDH engaged)
Weigh ticket 2: 2540, 3480, 4640 (WDH dis-engaged)
Weigh ticket 3: 2780, 2640 (Cayenne only)

GCWR from Cayenne manual ?
GCW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 10660

GVWR Cayenne 6305
GVW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 5880

GAWR Front 2998
GAW Front (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 2840

GAWR Rear 3726
GAW Rear (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 3040

Tongue Weight Max 617 or 770 ?
Tongue Weight (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 600
(Weigh ticket 2: Steer + Drive Axles - Weight ticket 3: Steer + Drive Axles)

Trailer GVWR 6395
Trailer GVW 5240
(Tongue weight + Weigh ticket 2: Trailer Axle)

With WDH engaged you’re transferring 300# to steer axle and 140# to trailer axle

Observations:
The weight of the WDH is included in the 600# tongue weight

Not sure why you are experiencing harsher driving? Maybe the bars are actually too tight?

What is the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) for your Cayenne? It may be in your Owner’s Manual.
 
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[MENTION=37517]dkayak[/MENTION]

So from your latest weighs (I think I read them right) this is what I get:

(Steer axle, drive axle, trailer axle)
Weigh ticket 1: 2840, 3040, 4780 (WDH engaged)
Weigh ticket 2: 2540, 3480, 4640 (WDH dis-engaged)
Weigh ticket 3: 2780, 2640 (Cayenne only)

GCWR from Cayenne manual ?
GCW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 10660

GVWR Cayenne 6305
GVW (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 5880

GAWR Front 2998
GAW Front (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 2840

GAWR Rear 3726
GAW Rear (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 3040

Tongue Weight Max 617 or 770 ?
Tongue Weight (Cayenne + trailer with WDH engaged) 600
(Weigh ticket 2: Steer + Drive Axles - Weight ticket 3: Steer + Drive Axles)

Trailer GVWR 6395
Trailer GVW 5240
(Tongue weight + Weigh ticket 2: Trailer Axle)

With WDH engaged you’re transferring 300# to steer axle and 140# to trailer axle

Observations:
The weight of the WDH is included in the 600# tongue weight

Not sure why you are experiencing harsher driving? Maybe the bars are actually too tight?

What is the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) for your Cayenne? It may be in your Owner’s Manual.
I'm struggling to see how the WDH could be included the 600 lb since it remained attached to the receiver (along with the spring bars) for all 3 scale measurements. How would it be distinguished from the weight of the spare tire, muffler, or bumper for example? It's just part of the car at that point. If I buy a Sherline scale and weigh the trailer resting on the coupler, the WDH hanging on the car won't be measured. That's why I assumed it should be added back in for comparison to the tongue weight limit. Or maybe it should just ignored as "part of the car", but it does hang on the receiver. Since the true limit is probably 770 lb, ignoring it is safe. This all gets very confusing. Maybe I need a little more wine this evening to make sense of it. LOL

I wouldn't call it overly harsh. It's just that we noticed more "firmness" than with the first settings. I suspect it's more a matter of the first setting having too little pressure on the bars and thus too little weight transferred. The Fastway instructions say if you pull the front fender down "at least halfway" back down to its unhitched level, you have it right. The first setting was less than halfway down and the 2nd setting was slightly lower than the original height (ref Post #12 ).

The GCWR is 14,021 lb per the manual, from the table with the other limits.
 
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If you get a Sherline scale and weigh the tongue you will need to add to that number the combined weights of the shank, head, ball, and bars (66#). The frame brackets for the bars will already be in the Sherline weight.

When you were at the CAT scale with the WDH engaged, the entire weight of the WDH was included in the tongue weight.
 

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