Exceeding truck GAWR and/or payload (by a smidge)

[backtrack2015]

My goal when buying a truck was always to remain 100% legal with respect to GAWRs, GVWRs, and GCVW. We wanted a travel trailer at that time. Well since then the DW has really fallen for the Reflection 28BH, and I think I have a slight GAWR problem and will be real tight on GVW for the truck.

I ordered a 2017 F-350 crew-cab short-bed 4x4 with the diesel engine (full specs below if interested). Unfortunately, and without really thinking about it, I optioned it up to the point that it may not quite work for the 28BH. This absolutely flabbergasts my wife, who like most folks simply can't believe and F-350 would even be close to the legal limits. She is used to seeing monsters being pulled by 3/4 ton trucks.

Problem #1:
Unless a miracle occurred at the factory (truck just got built), my front axle will have a GAWR of 5200 lbs because of the front springs (axle itself=6000, wheels/tires=7230). There is a very good chance I'll be barely below 5200 lbs with 4 people and 1 dog in the cab (nothing else). Unless I somehow put the king-pin slightly behind the rear axle (not my plan), I expect the 28BH will push me over the front GAWR. I don't really know how much the fifth-wheels typically load the truck's front axle so I'd be interested in any experience and/or scale results you have on this issue.

Problem #2:
I fully expect my truck's certification sticker will show a payload capacity of ~3260 lbs. Debiting 720 lbs for occupants and 300 lbs for the Demco hijacker autoslide hitch (short bed) leaves me with about 2240 lbs for the king-pin. That's pretty darn close to the 2200 lb king-pin weight I get by using 20% of the trailer GVW (dry hitch is 1590 lbs). I still wanted to have an MX4 or F1 tonneau cover mounted too (71 lbs). FYI, the rear axle will be about 1000 lbs under GAWR. Would being right at GVW bother you?

Ultimately:
The DW says she's fine with the travel trailer (truck all well within specs), but I don't believe it. Would these issues keep you from buying the 28BH? Should I just delete the spreadsheet and relax? I do know I could use the Anderson ultimate to drop ~200+ lbs of hitch weight, but that unfortunately wouldn't help the front axle.

Thanks!

Truck specs:
2017 F-350 6.7L CCSB 4x4 Lariat
FX4 package, Ultimate package, Tow Tech bundle, blind-spot system, 5th wheel prep package, 20" aluminum wheels, power running boards, heated rear seats, inflating belts, wheel-well liners, mud flaps, spray-in bed liner, block heater, upfitter switches, homelink.



EDIT, UPDATED 7/28/2018
I wanted to close this out here at the beginning for the sake of completeness. We ended up buying the 28BH and the B&W slider hitch. The truck came with the 5200 GAWR front axle and my payload capacity ended up at 3332 lbs. I have taken it over the scales a few times and everything is within spec. The only thing that has ever been close is the truck's front axle. On my last trip over the scales with everyone in the truck, fully fueled, full of DEF, and the trailer loaded I got the following... STEER = 5160 (5200 GAWR, close!), DRIVE = 5820 (7200 GAWR), TRAILER = 8120 (10400 GAWR, 2@5200 each). Using these numbers, the total for the truck was 10980 (GVWR 11500). Back-calculating the pin-weight based on known truck loads yields ~1800 lbs and adding the trailer axle loads gives a total trailer weight of ~9900 lbs (GVWR 10995). If I could do it over again I would specify the 5600 GAWR front axle from Ford.

 

[TucsonJim]

Since you'd be right at the limit of the truck with the 300# Demco hitch, why not consider the Anderson Ultimate Hitch. It will put another couple hundred pounds in your payload bank and keep you right off the edge.

Check out this video on using the AUH with a very short bed pickup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxi1rMc42sM

Jim

 

[backtrack2015]

Since you'd be right at the limit of the truck with the 300# Demco hitch, why not consider the Anderson Ultimate Hitch. It will put another couple hundred pounds in your payload bank and keep you right off the edge.

Check out this video on using the AUH with a very short bed pickup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxi1rMc42sM

Jim

Yes, I'm thinking about it. It provides space against GVWR and also offsets the pin a bit I think (in my favor). My concerns with the AUH are three: (1) increased potential for cab contact if I lose focus vs autoslider, (2) locking the trailer when disconnected and unattended, and (3) it just doesn't seem as secure of a lock to the ball inside the coupler (twist handle and cable). I wish they had a design that would allow the ball to be locked in the coupler.

 

[Jerryr]

I'd have no issue with your combination but I would seriously look at an Andersen Hitch to save 250 lbs of weight.

I have a similar truck. Not as fully optioned Lariat 4x4 and Payload is 3500 lbs. I tow a Reflection 337 which grosses out 3,000 lbs more than your 28BH.

Also have a F1 Tonneau, an Andersen Ultimate Hitch. It tows great!!!

I did replace the trailer brakes with Titan disk brakes and it made a world if difference in stopping power.

 

[Jerryr]

Don't fret about locking an Andersen when unhitched. Ft Knox makes a very secure lock. Here's mine installed when at the storage facility.

 

[cmillsbl]

Have you looked at the Pullrite Autoslide 16K? It's "only" 190 lbs.

I'm using that with my 307MKS, which is similar in size to your unit. I'm pulling with an F250 Lariat and have a Tonneau cover. I was about 50 lbs over the rear axle rating on our last trip, but had our two grandkids with us- normally just wife and me.

 

[D2Reid]

Rule number 1: never ever ever ever admit you are over weight on a public forum.

Talk about capacities, post capacities, consider mitigation options, but never say you are over weight.

Then get real about your weight. A fellow I new pulled a really heavy boat from his house to the boat ramp. He had to put the truck in 4x4 low to get it out of the water. Terribly over grossed, but it worked for him because it was a short distance. I push the envelope (aviators term meaning that I operate at the edge of acceptable tolerances). But I know I am, and I act accordingly. I do not try to reach the speed limit, 70, 75, 80 will never happen. 60mph is my top, why? Because that is what the bearing/weight limitations are for my rig. Tires will go faster, axles will go faster, truck can pull it faster, but bearings say 60MPH. That's the speed rating for my weakest link.

Weight tolerances are designed to keep us from being stupid in harsher than average conditions. If you know you are weak and work around it is one thing, if you know you are weak and try to fly with the eagles then you probably have catastrophic failure.

At the end of the day we must analyze the risk factors and decide for ourselves what tolerances are acceptable. Someone towing in Illinois will certainly have different needs from someone towing in the Rockies.

Know it, own it, keep you family safe.

 

[backtrack2015]

Thanks everyone for the helpful replies. I'll look at that Ft. Knox lock (hadn't seen that before) and revisit the Pullrite as well. I think I can claw my way farther from the GVW one way or another. Probably the real issue is the front axle GAWR, but I won't know what my real numbers are until I get the truck on a scale. However, prior to buying the trailer, it would be great to have an idea for how much fifth-wheels tend to load the front axle (e.g., -1% to 5% of pin weight?) so I can make an educated decision.

Does anyone have any scale measurements that might indicate how the king-pin load is distributed to the front & rear axles of the truck? Hopefully a few people have measured so we can see the trends. If you also know how much the center of the king-pin is offset from the rear axle centerline on your truck, that would be really informative as well. Thank you!

 

[navychief77]

I was in your shoes a month ago when I took my 350m from WI to TN with 2 Harleys in the pack. Had a 2014 F-250 Super with the 6.7, firestone air bags and KO2's. the truck pulled fine, braked ok, but on the hills, that short bed got tossed like a rage doll over 55 mph and when the rains kicked up, it was white knuckles. I tried to justify keeping my truck, but I decided that my families lives, and the other families on the road aren't worth it. I was at my max cap of 15900. It all really comes down to your ownership of what you are willing to accept if you wreck and kill someone.

 

[Second Chance]

Yes, I'm thinking about it. It provides space against GVWR and also offsets the pin a bit I think (in my favor). My concerns with the AUH are three: (1) increased potential for cab contact if I lose focus vs autoslider, (2) locking the trailer when disconnected and unattended, and (3) it just doesn't seem as secure of a lock to the ball inside the coupler (twist handle and cable). I wish they had a design that would allow the ball to be locked in the coupler.

We pulled our first 10K miles with an Andersen Ultimate with a trailer grossing at 13,990 GVWR and 3,100 lbs. pin weight per the CAT scales. We towed with a CC truck with 6.5' bed. It was a great combo. The new molded front caps are a lot different than the old, squared-off front ends of fifth wheels. As long as I was aware than I couldn't go a full 90 degrees (and who wants/needs to do that?), never came close to hitting the cab. The "lock" between the ball and coupler is VERY secure - no worries there. It sure was nice to be able to install and remove the hitch by myself - often with one hand! If it comes down to weight concerns vs. cab clearance, the Andersen wins. BTW - whether or not the ball and coupler are a couple of inches in front of or behind the axle depends on which way you turn the hitch and adapter. Ours was set up with the ball behind the axle and the coupler socket behind the kingpin to shorten the radius of the king pin (to avoid hitting the side rails of the Tonneau cover). The two positions made about a 200 lb. difference in the weights on the front axle.

Rob

 

[BabyBober]

By the way, the only difference on the front axle weight is the spring. You can easily change to the 6k springs after you get the truck, it will just give you a stiffer ride unloaded. As Rob mentioned with the 5th wheel hooked you actually will lighten up some on the front axle... while it is good you are looking at worst case scenarios will you really load up the 28BH to its max CCC? I can say short of full timing/ traveling for months, I can't imagine putting that much "crap" in out 303. I went through the same as you and planned for worse case scenario but now after. 2 dozen trips I am loaded up for a week with much less then max load... of course you mileage may very...

Jim

 

[backtrack2015]

Jim,

I appreciate your feedback. Given our usage, which is a couple big trips each year and a handful of weekend trips, I expect we will not be loading to the trailers GVW. The 28BH also has most of the interior storage at or behind the axles, and one large exterior storage compartment at the very back. As such it is quite likely that I can keep the king-pin weight below the estimated value, but I do want the ability to go to 20% GVW if needed to optimize the towing behavior of the rig.

Just to confirm with respect to the front axle, you're using the Demco (which has a factory-set pin position relative to the rear axle) and you saw a slight reduction in your front axle load when you hitched up to your fifth wheel? If so, that is good news.

Edit: added salutation.

 

[backtrack2015]

We pulled our first 10K miles with an Andersen Ultimate with a trailer grossing at 13,990 GVWR and 3,100 lbs. pin weight per the CAT scales. We towed with a CC truck with 6.5' bed. It was a great combo. The new molded front caps are a lot different than the old, squared-off front ends of fifth wheels. As long as I was aware than I couldn't go a full 90 degrees (and who wants/needs to do that?), never came close to hitting the cab. The "lock" between the ball and coupler is VERY secure - no worries there. It sure was nice to be able to install and remove the hitch by myself - often with one hand! If it comes down to weight concerns vs. cab clearance, the Andersen wins. BTW - whether or not the ball and coupler are a couple of inches in front of or behind the axle depends on which way you turn the hitch and adapter. Ours was set up with the ball behind the axle and the coupler socket behind the kingpin to shorten the radius of the king pin (to avoid hitting the side rails of the Tonneau cover). The two positions made about a 200 lb. difference in the weights on the front axle.

Rob

Rob,

Thank you for your observations and comments. If I went with the AUH, I believe I would set it up the hitch with the ball toward the tailgate. I would also run with the coupler socket behind the king-pin for the same reasons you mentioned. My question: When you used this orientation, what was your estimated trailer king-pin load and the observed change in front-axle load going from unhitched/hitched? This info would be very relevant in my situation.

Thank you,
Steven

 

[BabyBober]

Jim,

I appreciate your feedback. Given our usage, which is a couple big trips each year and a handful of weekend trips, I expect we will not be loading to the trailers GVW. The 28BH also has most of the interior storage at or behind the axles, and one large exterior storage compartment at the very back. As such it is quite likely that I can keep the king-pin weight below the estimated value, but I do want the ability to go to 20% GVW if needed to optimize the towing behavior of the rig.

Just to confirm with respect to the front axle, you're using the Demco (which has a factory-set pin position relative to the rear axle) and you saw a slight reduction in your front axle load when you hitched up to your fifth wheel? If so, that is good news.

Edit: added salutation.

Correct. I can't find my numbers at the moment but yes, there was a slight unload on the front end. We head out tomorrow for the week. If I have time I will hit the town scales again....

Jim

 

[backtrack2015]

Correct. I can't find my numbers at the moment but yes, there was a slight unload on the front end. We head out tomorrow for the week. If I have time I will hit the town scales again....

Jim

This is good news indeed. Enjoy your trip!

 

[Second Chance]

Rob,

Thank you for your observations and comments. If I went with the AUH, I believe I would set it up the hitch with the ball toward the tailgate. I would also run with the coupler socket behind the king-pin for the same reasons you mentioned. My question: When you used this orientation, what was your estimated trailer king-pin load and the observed change in front-axle load going from unhitched/hitched? This info would be very relevant in my situation.

Thank you,
Steven

Steven,

I went back to my original loading spreadsheet for that rig (337 and SRW truck). With 3,100 lbs. pin weight on the hitch, the front axle of the truck was 180 lbs. lighter than when not hitched up. That's with the ball behind the rear axle and the adapter in front of the kingpin as you are contemplating.

Rob

 

[Ivan S854]

These are the weights from our rig.

The front axle weight didn't change at all... of course we're in a somewhat different boat... we have a long bed (with the pin centered directly above the axle)

 

[backtrack2015]

Steven,

I went back to my original loading spreadsheet for that rig (337 and SRW truck). With 3,100 lbs. pin weight on the hitch, the front axle of the truck was 180 lbs. lighter than when not hitched up. That's with the ball behind the rear axle and the adapter in front of the kingpin as you are contemplating.

Rob

Rob, This is great information and very helpful. The AUH would help on me on two significant fronts. Thank you for searching your files on my behalf. -Steven

 

[backtrack2015]

These are the weights from our rig.

The front axle weight didn't change at all... of course we're in a somewhat different boat... we have a long bed (with the pin centered directly above the axle)

This is more good information. Thank you. It looks like your king-pin load (2160 lbs) was about 18% of the GVWR for the trailer (2018 value anyway), which is also good news considering you had a nice load of fresh water (which is something I'd like to do as well). -Steven

 

[J&G garage]

Our front axle weight doesn't change either. We have a B&W Companion hitch mount directly over the rear axle.