Flex-frame issues and warrenties?

[traveldawg]

That's what I've been wondering. What changes did GD and Lippert make in manufacturing between past units and new units? There has got to be something different in how they are manufacturing now, than in the past..

How about we go with this as to why problems occurred...

• more pressure to build quicker and faster;
• covid likely forced a few issues with supply chain and likely labor causing corners to be cut (fewer bolts, smaller bolts, etc.);
• overall lack of any quality control on the line that is/was robust enough to stop the line if issues were spotted;
• general lack of attention to detail on the assembly line;
• poorly trained people on the line in the face of labor shortages and completion between manufacturers for a labor force (too much manufacturing in one location and not enough workers who primarily focus on the day job at manufacturing vs. their real job tending farms).

How about we go with this as to why (maybe?) current units are better....

• having to stave off costly defenses of previously poorly constructed units (lawyers, media control, angry owners posting exposes about reoccurring failures);
• having to spend more on warranty issuies;
• public embarrassment after the industries bumbling assembly processes were exposed;

Go with whatever you want. But there is probably no better way than public shaming to light a fire under your butt to start doing what is right versus what lines your pockets.

I doubt you would find any quality control practice classes going on in the RV industry. I doubt you would find any amount of quality control books getting read and reviewed in the industry either. I doubt if you asked a lot of industry leaders how many times they read a book from Demming, Crosby, or Ishikawa let alone how they are applying those ideas into manufacturing you'd get a pretty blank stare from most of them.

I laughed at my self about the bit about stopping the assembly line if one spotted a bad practice, failure to adhere to using fasteners not called out in engineering documents, or poor workmanship from a previous assembly line position/operation. The work force is catered to with early staring and stopping hours to allow them time to get home and tend their fields and farms; or, in other words, get back to their real passion and away from the grueling pace of pushing out RVs within time limits imposed by those focused on boosting manufacturing numbers vs. reading quality charts.

I'll throw out one more challenge.... has anyone ever seen a true quality control pitch from any manufacturer monthly similar to the number of reports exposing number of units built and number of sales?

 

[Steven@147]

@traveldawg
Sad but probably all true.
Speculation - poorly design specs, flex to PEX, plastic connectors. Haphazard electrical wire and waterline installation. Assembly line workers all doing the same job for many months and got used to their particular part of assembly before the pandemic. Stop all production, then restart with different people doing those jobs. Then just do what your told, put these bolts in, there.

Or don't worry about sweeping and cleaning off the roof before adding a little glue here and there, then lay on the TPO covering, don't think about it, just do it. Hence screws, dirt, and whatever else trapped under the TPO covering when laid on. Dried out glue, not enough glue to hold down TPO covering, poorly installed roof ridge strip and stripped out screws. etc, etc, etc. Dealers will fix it in the field. Just get it out the door?

We toured the Momentum and Solitude manufacturing line back in 2019-2020 time frame, I wasn't too impressed.
But then again, that was from my perspective working for a major computer manufacturer for 25 years, retired in 2004. Initially I spent 6 months in training for 6 Sigma then updates every quarter. Spent 5 years in Corporate Quality Control / failure data analysis and trips out into the field for observation analysis. Then meetings between Corporate Quality Control and Plant Manufacturing Quality Control. Rolling out correction plans, best practice advisories, conducting training seminars in the field, analyzing feedback from field techs actually doing the job. Using our performance metrics to help drive better quality back into 3rd party company product providers.

All those metrics we used to pour over looking for problems before they became problems.
MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures
MTTR - Mean Time To Repair
SCMY - Service Calls per Machine per Year
SAMY - Service Actions per Machine per Year
TPR - Top Parts Replacement / Part Failure Analysis

I wonder if any of it still exist? Now days seems like Quality maybe just a word that gets thrown around occasionally.

 

[huntr70]

@traveldawg
We toured the Momentum and Solitude manufacturing line back in 2019-2020 time frame, I wasn't too impressed.

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

 

[Steven@147]

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

No we didn't go to any other RV manufacturer's plants. We had decided on a GDRV Solitude and the plant tour was to be the final judgment on buying. We never saw anything horrendous like what you're describing, if we had we would have left the tour immediately and we wouldn't have Solitude now.

No it was just that, when our tour guide was explaining the process, what they thought was revolutionary in the RV industry, seem to me, it should have already been commonplace and what should have been done all along. Also it seemed that when the bell rang for recess, everything was dropped right where is was, and everybody left. If a roof was half done gluing down the TPO, it was just left that way.

Their production process barely looked like a process. It really just looked like a bunch of guys got together and decided to build something in their garage. The manufacturing floor wasn't that clean. The production didn't seem efficient at all. From someone coming from a professional, well thought out and controlled manufacturing process, these guys looked like a bunch of armature garage monkeys, but they thought it was revolutionary! That is what struck me the most, really? You think this is revolutionary?
I had an uneasy feeling, a lot of things I didn't like, but I never saw anything on the tour in 2019 that said, NOPE, not buying one of these.

 

[traveldawg]

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

fwiw... wife and I have toured many RV manufacturing plants.... American Coach, Tiffin, Newmar, Montana, GD, Big Horn, Alliance, Double Tree, Enter. I'm sure we've left a few off.

Of them all I think American Coach might have had some kind of QA measurements up and about in their factory. Don't recall any others. At one time you could tour while RVs were being built. It provided a much better sense of how they were assembled.

When we ordered our Tiffin class A pusher, we were able to follow the build daily once it came out of the frame shop. We actually stood on it and rode it as soon as the floor was laid down before even the tile floor was installed. Quite the operation. It took 3 days. We got to meet all the assemblers. They always wanted to know if we saw something we weren't sure about or had a question to ask them. We caught a few things, nothing major, but things that would have meant a post purchase fix or change. Things like wood work that didn't seem to match (they'd go get a better matching drawer front or something like that). , loose or unscripted wires, etc. Most workers there took a lot of pride and liked showing off how they installed things - specifically the roof install. I have no doubt we had a better quality coach than anyone who wasn't on hand to attend their build. We never had any PDI issues but did have some warranty recall things over the 7 years we owned it. Now Thor owns Tiffin and we visited a few years back - whole new ball game there, from fewer and more limited plant tours to increase capacity to make repairs (warranty and non-warranty).

Our GD tours was even give to us and one other couple by a VP there. Who was later involved in our purchase decision and a slight model mixup that was caught in time and personally rectified by that VP.

I can't say, other than Tiffin let us attend the build (practically participate in it) that any manufacturer built any better or different than any other manufacture. They all have their folks who run around with colored tape to mask off blemishes & such that need further attention. But I don't recall anyone running around testing screws, bolts, etc. and putting colored markers on them similar to automobile assembly indicating a post install inspection that passed or was tested.

 

[robmcqueen]

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

So what your saying is everyone does it that way so its OK. 2 wrongs don't make it right.
Here is a link to Outdoors RV factory tour.

 

[huntr70]

So what your saying is everyone does it that way so its OK. 2 wrongs don't make it right.
Here is a link to Outdoors RV factory tour.

Sorry, those words did not come from my fingertips...

What I was implying is that there are many, many worse factories out there.

I never, ever said it was right.

Don't read into it any more than that.

 

[PeterInNH]

So what your saying is everyone does it that way so its OK. 2 wrongs don't make it right.
Here is a link to Outdoors RV factory tour.

Well, I watched all 3 videos in that series - very interesting.

Does anyone know how similar Grand Design manufacturing techniques are ? The way Outdoors RV put together the frame, underbelly, floor, walls, aluminum beams filled with wood pieces, the curved trusses for the roof, etc seemed to be well thought out.

Are there any videos out there that have a similar factory walk-thru for GD ? Or anything else that talks about/shows the internal construction materials and techniques for GD ?

Thanks !

 

[huntr70]

Well, I watched all 3 videos in that series - very interesting.

Does anyone know how similar Grand Design manufacturing techniques are ? The way Outdoors RV put together the frame, underbelly, floor, walls, aluminum beams filled with wood pieces, the curved trusses for the roof, etc seemed to be well thought out.

Are there any videos out there that have a similar factory walk-thru for GD ? Or anything else that talks about/shows the internal construction materials and techniques for GD ?

Thanks !

I did not watch the video, but I can tell you that GD starts with the frame upside down to put in tanks, string wires, pull plumbing, etc.

The floor goes on and then the interior and walls. The laminated walls are all built in house, in a climate controlled plant. Each wall has a pull apart test done to it also, before being assigned to a unit.

GD also uses wood filled aluminum for better screw retention.

GD uses all wood roof trusses for screw retention also, as opposed to stamped metal.

Again, not saying one is right or wrong, just what I've seen compared to other builders.

 

[Canyonlight]

The fix wasn't lag bolts, it is welding in supports and repairing the cracked side walls. Different issue than lack of or size of lag bolts.

Yes, thank you, Steve. Always appreciate your feedback. The question of what changed (influencers aside....I too not a fan of these folks) with GDRV larger/heavier unit frames in recent years (if anything) seems a good question.

Anything to share on this, Steve ?

Dan

 

[huntr70]

Yes, thank you, Steve. Always appreciate your feedback. The question of what changed (influencers aside....I too not a fan of these folks) with GDRV larger/heavier unit frames in recent years (if anything) seems a good question.

Anything to share on this, Steve ?

Dan

To my knowledge, nothing has changed. There are certainly different frame configurations that have come and gone (Lippert Rhino frame), but I'm no engineer to tell you what may or may not be different.

Could be strength of imported steel, could be the blend used to make the steel, could be the actual configuration of where things are welded.

One thing I can tell you is that this isn't an isolated to GD issue....it is much larger, just brought into the spotlight on GD. And it really isn't a widespread thing. In my entire RV career, frame flex has always been an issue that manufacturers faced. Years ago, FR had a Sandpiper 5th wheel that flexed like crazy in the rear, because there was too much unsupported overhang behind the axles.

There is always something....

 

[ajg617]

When I picked mine up from the LCI shop, owner showed me SOB 5th that had been in the dealer for flex and then to the factory for flex. The factory repairs included adding a steel beam. Unfortunately, they didn't extend the extra support to the broken (yes broken) frame in front of the bedroom slide out so it did absolutely nothing to help. Stunning.

 

[robmcqueen]

Everyone should see this video. I know some will say it BS

 

[Hoopy Frood]

I got tired of the self-importance of the individual, and quit watching. And I can say that with 100% accuracy.

 

[robmcqueen]

I got tired of the self-importance of the individual, and quit watching. And I can say that with 100% accuracy.

You way not like him and be in denial about the frame problems out there but you should watch the video he talks with a GD rep about the frames GD is using.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

You way not like him and be in denial about the frame problems out there but you should watch the video he talks with a GD rep about the frames GD is using.

I happen to glance over a number of different forums of different brands. And Grand Design isn't the only brand with frame problems, regardless of what this guy says. And his "insider" information.

After all, this "reporting" will help keep his subscriber numbers up. And that seems to be the main thrust of many YouTubers.

 

[coglesby]

I’ve measured mine and no frame flex issues

 

[huntindog]

So far the "fix" has consisted of 1/2" lag bolts to properly fit the 1/2" holes in the frame, and some adhesive to hopefully keep the bolts from backing out.
I would much prefer a mechanical method of preventing bolt backout.
I previously thought about tack welding the bolt heads to the frame. I discarded that idea because welding inside a coach has a high fire risk.
A better idea finally hit me.

Some small steel plates about 1" square, and 1/8" thick with a hole drilled in the center. Some self tapping hex head metal screws to fit the hole.
Place the square up against a lag bolt hex head flat. Secure it with a self tapping screw into the frame. That bolt will never back out on it's own again...But if it needed to be removed later for some reason, it could be.

 

[huntindog]

delete

 

[Scott'n'Wendy]

I happen to glance over a number of different forums of different brands. And Grand Design isn't the only brand with frame problems, regardless of what this guy says. And his "insider" information.

After all, this "reporting" will help keep his subscriber numbers up. And that seems to be the main thrust of many YouTubers.

Anybody that has been around RV's for a long time will know this frame flex issue has been around for decades with the heavier units. 20 years ago Lippert frames flexed and broke and Lippert didn't re-engineer to eliminate the problem then...they aren't doing it now. Anybody that thinks it's mainly a GD problem hasn't been paying attention.