Flex-frame issues and warrenties?

[traveldawg]

That's what I've been wondering. What changes did GD and Lippert make in manufacturing between past units and new units? There has got to be something different in how they are manufacturing now, than in the past..

How about we go with this as to why problems occurred...

• more pressure to build quicker and faster;
• covid likely forced a few issues with supply chain and likely labor causing corners to be cut (fewer bolts, smaller bolts, etc.);
• overall lack of any quality control on the line that is/was robust enough to stop the line if issues were spotted;
• general lack of attention to detail on the assembly line;
• poorly trained people on the line in the face of labor shortages and completion between manufacturers for a labor force (too much manufacturing in one location and not enough workers who primarily focus on the day job at manufacturing vs. their real job tending farms).

How about we go with this as to why (maybe?) current units are better....

• having to stave off costly defenses of previously poorly constructed units (lawyers, media control, angry owners posting exposes about reoccurring failures);
• having to spend more on warranty issuies;
• public embarrassment after the industries bumbling assembly processes were exposed;

Go with whatever you want. But there is probably no better way than public shaming to light a fire under your butt to start doing what is right versus what lines your pockets.

I doubt you would find any quality control practice classes going on in the RV industry. I doubt you would find any amount of quality control books getting read and reviewed in the industry either. I doubt if you asked a lot of industry leaders how many times they read a book from Demming, Crosby, or Ishikawa let alone how they are applying those ideas into manufacturing you'd get a pretty blank stare from most of them.

I laughed at my self about the bit about stopping the assembly line if one spotted a bad practice, failure to adhere to using fasteners not called out in engineering documents, or poor workmanship from a previous assembly line position/operation. The work force is catered to with early staring and stopping hours to allow them time to get home and tend their fields and farms; or, in other words, get back to their real passion and away from the grueling pace of pushing out RVs within time limits imposed by those focused on boosting manufacturing numbers vs. reading quality charts.

I'll throw out one more challenge.... has anyone ever seen a true quality control pitch from any manufacturer monthly similar to the number of reports exposing number of units built and number of sales?

 

[Steven@147]

@traveldawg
Sad but probably all true.
Speculation - poorly design specs, flex to PEX, plastic connectors. Haphazard electrical wire and waterline installation. Assembly line workers all doing the same job for many months and got used to their particular part of assembly before the pandemic. Stop all production, then restart with different people doing those jobs. Then just do what your told, put these bolts in, there.

Or don't worry about sweeping and cleaning off the roof before adding a little glue here and there, then lay on the TPO covering, don't think about it, just do it. Hence screws, dirt, and whatever else trapped under the TPO covering when laid on. Dried out glue, not enough glue to hold down TPO covering, poorly installed roof ridge strip and stripped out screws. etc, etc, etc. Dealers will fix it in the field. Just get it out the door?

We toured the Momentum and Solitude manufacturing line back in 2019-2020 time frame, I wasn't too impressed.
But then again, that was from my perspective working for a major computer manufacturer for 25 years, retired in 2004. Initially I spent 6 months in training for 6 Sigma then updates every quarter. Spent 5 years in Corporate Quality Control / failure data analysis and trips out into the field for observation analysis. Then meetings between Corporate Quality Control and Plant Manufacturing Quality Control. Rolling out correction plans, best practice advisories, conducting training seminars in the field, analyzing feedback from field techs actually doing the job. Using our performance metrics to help drive better quality back into 3rd party company product providers.

All those metrics we used to pour over looking for problems before they became problems.
MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures
MTTR - Mean Time To Repair
SCMY - Service Calls per Machine per Year
SAMY - Service Actions per Machine per Year
TPR - Top Parts Replacement / Part Failure Analysis

I wonder if any of it still exist? Now days seems like Quality maybe just a word that gets thrown around occasionally.

 

[huntr70]

@traveldawg
We toured the Momentum and Solitude manufacturing line back in 2019-2020 time frame, I wasn't too impressed.

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

 

[Steven@147]

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

No we didn't go to any other RV manufacturer's plants. We had decided on a GDRV Solitude and the plant tour was to be the final judgment on buying. We never saw anything horrendous like what you're describing, if we had we would have left the tour immediately and we wouldn't have Solitude now.

No it was just that, when our tour guide was explaining the process, what they thought was revolutionary in the RV industry, seem to me, it should have already been commonplace and what should have been done all along. Also it seemed that when the bell rang for recess, everything was dropped right where is was, and everybody left. If a roof was half done gluing down the TPO, it was just left that way.

Their production process barely looked like a process. It really just looked like a bunch of guys got together and decided to build something in their garage. The manufacturing floor wasn't that clean. The production didn't seem efficient at all. From someone coming from a professional, well thought out and controlled manufacturing process, these guys looked like a bunch of armature garage monkeys, but they thought it was revolutionary! That is what struck me the most, really? You think this is revolutionary?
I had an uneasy feeling, a lot of things I didn't like, but I never saw anything on the tour in 2019 that said, NOPE, not buying one of these.

 

[traveldawg]

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

fwiw... wife and I have toured many RV manufacturing plants.... American Coach, Tiffin, Newmar, Montana, GD, Big Horn, Alliance, Double Tree, Enter. I'm sure we've left a few off.

Of them all I think American Coach might have had some kind of QA measurements up and about in their factory. Don't recall any others. At one time you could tour while RVs were being built. It provided a much better sense of how they were assembled.

When we ordered our Tiffin class A pusher, we were able to follow the build daily once it came out of the frame shop. We actually stood on it and rode it as soon as the floor was laid down before even the tile floor was installed. Quite the operation. It took 3 days. We got to meet all the assemblers. They always wanted to know if we saw something we weren't sure about or had a question to ask them. We caught a few things, nothing major, but things that would have meant a post purchase fix or change. Things like wood work that didn't seem to match (they'd go get a better matching drawer front or something like that). , loose or unscripted wires, etc. Most workers there took a lot of pride and liked showing off how they installed things - specifically the roof install. I have no doubt we had a better quality coach than anyone who wasn't on hand to attend their build. We never had any PDI issues but did have some warranty recall things over the 7 years we owned it. Now Thor owns Tiffin and we visited a few years back - whole new ball game there, from fewer and more limited plant tours to increase capacity to make repairs (warranty and non-warranty).

Our GD tours was even give to us and one other couple by a VP there. Who was later involved in our purchase decision and a slight model mixup that was caught in time and personally rectified by that VP.

I can't say, other than Tiffin let us attend the build (practically participate in it) that any manufacturer built any better or different than any other manufacture. They all have their folks who run around with colored tape to mask off blemishes & such that need further attention. But I don't recall anyone running around testing screws, bolts, etc. and putting colored markers on them similar to automobile assembly indicating a post install inspection that passed or was tested.

 

[robmcqueen]

Just curious if you toured any other RV manufacturer plants while you were out there.

It may have changed your mind.....I've been through over a dozen, and the GD plants are far and above the rest as far as cleanliness, mindfulness, and actual production.

You haven't seen anything until you've been through a FR Puma plant and watched a guy tape his trigger on an air stapler and literally sprint down scaffolding stapling decking to a roof. Most missed, I assume a few hit something...

So what your saying is everyone does it that way so its OK. 2 wrongs don't make it right.
Here is a link to Outdoors RV factory tour.

 

[huntr70]

So what your saying is everyone does it that way so its OK. 2 wrongs don't make it right.
Here is a link to Outdoors RV factory tour.

Sorry, those words did not come from my fingertips...

What I was implying is that there are many, many worse factories out there.

I never, ever said it was right.

Don't read into it any more than that.

 

[PeterInNH]

So what your saying is everyone does it that way so its OK. 2 wrongs don't make it right.
Here is a link to Outdoors RV factory tour.

Well, I watched all 3 videos in that series - very interesting.

Does anyone know how similar Grand Design manufacturing techniques are ? The way Outdoors RV put together the frame, underbelly, floor, walls, aluminum beams filled with wood pieces, the curved trusses for the roof, etc seemed to be well thought out.

Are there any videos out there that have a similar factory walk-thru for GD ? Or anything else that talks about/shows the internal construction materials and techniques for GD ?

Thanks !

 

[huntr70]

Well, I watched all 3 videos in that series - very interesting.

Does anyone know how similar Grand Design manufacturing techniques are ? The way Outdoors RV put together the frame, underbelly, floor, walls, aluminum beams filled with wood pieces, the curved trusses for the roof, etc seemed to be well thought out.

Are there any videos out there that have a similar factory walk-thru for GD ? Or anything else that talks about/shows the internal construction materials and techniques for GD ?

Thanks !

I did not watch the video, but I can tell you that GD starts with the frame upside down to put in tanks, string wires, pull plumbing, etc.

The floor goes on and then the interior and walls. The laminated walls are all built in house, in a climate controlled plant. Each wall has a pull apart test done to it also, before being assigned to a unit.

GD also uses wood filled aluminum for better screw retention.

GD uses all wood roof trusses for screw retention also, as opposed to stamped metal.

Again, not saying one is right or wrong, just what I've seen compared to other builders.