Frame Flex

[Scottyboy]

"All About RV" has you tube video about frame flex on Reflection RV's. The video shows where the frame is lag bolted to the wall in the bedroom area. The video shows after pulling the carpet up, there are only 2 lag bolts in the wall with predrilled empty holes for 3 more. The guy shows how he braced the wall and added 3 more lag bolts.

I looked at my 303RLS and I only have 2 lag bolts per side. Has any body else looked for these lag bolts? Has anybody braced the wall?

 

[trailrydr]

"All About RV" has you tube video about frame flex on Reflection RV's. The video shows where the frame is lag bolted to the wall in the bedroom area. The video shows after pulling the carpet up, there are only 2 lag bolts in the wall with predrilled empty holes for 3 more. The guy shows how he braced the wall and added 3 more lag bolts.

I looked at my 303RLS and I only have 2 lag bolts per side. Has any body else looked for these lag bolts? Has anybody braced the wall?

Our 150 295RL (similar to the 303 layout) also has the 2 lag bolts on either side.... never had any issues or added extra bracing.

 

[Jomani]

"All About RV" has you tube video about frame flex on Reflection RV's. The video shows where the frame is lag bolted to the wall in the bedroom area. The video shows after pulling the carpet up, there are only 2 lag bolts in the wall with predrilled empty holes for 3 more. The guy shows how he braced the wall and added 3 more lag bolts.

I looked at my 303RLS and I only have 2 lag bolts per side. Has any body else looked for these lag bolts? Has anybody braced the wall?

That video is enough to scare any Grand Design owner. After I watched it, I pulled up the video series that Big Truck Big RV did on Lipert frame flex and watched all three videos - very good information straight from the frame manufacturer.

I think the best advice they give is to watch the pin box as you hook and unhook from the truck and see if there is any movement (up and down) where the frame protrudes from the front cap. After watching that video, I actually scribed a line on both sides. Now, as I drop the pin down onto the hitch, I can see if there is any movement. If you watch carefully, you will see slight movement which is to be expected.

Personally, I wouldn’t make any modifications unless I saw a change. These frames are designed to flex and are built to allow the body to work with the frame flex. I can’t imagine that GD intentionally left out $5 worth of lag bolts if they were actually needed.

 

[Calbar]

That video is enough to scare any Grand Design owner. After I watched it, I pulled up the video series that Big Truck Big RV did on Lipert frame flex and watched all three videos - very good information straight from the frame manufacturer.

I think the best advice they give is to watch the pin box as you hook and unhook from the truck and see if there is any movement (up and down) where the frame protrudes from the front cap. After watching that video, I actually scribed a line on both sides. Now, as I drop the pin down onto the hitch, I can see if there is any movement. If you watch carefully, you will see slight movement which is to be expected.

Personally, I wouldn’t make any modifications unless I saw a change. These frames are designed to flex and are built to allow the body to work with the frame flex. I can’t imagine that GD intentionally left out $5 worth of lag bolts if they were actually needed.

Based on the other post about frame flex and a TSB for Momentums and Solitudes I would not agree with that statement. I believe that the piece work paid workers have been doing the minimum that they have to, to get their quotas and leaving out 3 of 5 lag bolts would be a considerable time saver. I know I have an appointment at the dealer to have the TSB addressed on my Solitude.

Rob

 

[Scottyboy]

That video is enough to scare any Grand Design owner. After I watched it, I pulled up the video series that Big Truck Big RV did on Lipert frame flex and watched all three videos - very good information straight from the frame manufacturer.

I think the best advice they give is to watch the pin box as you hook and unhook from the truck and see if there is any movement (up and down) where the frame protrudes from the front cap. After watching that video, I actually scribed a line on both sides. Now, as I drop the pin down onto the hitch, I can see if there is any movement. If you watch carefully, you will see slight movement which is to be expected.

Personally, I wouldn’t make any modifications unless I saw a change. These frames are designed to flex and are built to allow the body to work with the frame flex. I can’t imagine that GD intentionally left out $5 worth of lag bolts if they were actually needed.

Great idea about scribing the pin box. I will keep an eye on mine. I checked my cousins Solitude today, but the frame is different. The bed has a slide and I could not feel any lag bolts.

Once again,great idea about scribing the pin box.

 

[Butcher]

I believe that the piece work paid workers have been doing the minimum that they have to, to get their quotas and leaving out 3 of 5 lag bolts would be a considerable time saver.

What proof do you have that the Grand Design workers are paid by the piece?

I spent most of my career as a flat rate Mercedes tech and I do know for a fact that if I left 3 bolts [out of 5] on a wheel, it would indeed save some time. I also know that the comeback would be severe and someone could die. When I was first hired, you paid parts, labor, rental, and the tow bill if you were found responsible for any comeback.

I've worked with and hired hundreds of technicians and although I think 95% of them were hacks, I do not remember anyone that would have purposely done what you are implying. If there was one, they would not have been there a long time. They could not afford to.

I highly doubt of any of us think RV's are overbuilt but I also think many of us could not afford one that was. Short of a Semi, I doubt there would be many that could pull it.

I suspect that Grand Design figured two mounting bolts were good enough. Anything more would be overbuilt. I also suspect that most of us think 5 bolts would be better. Most of us are Americans and most of us believe that bigger is better and more is more better. I see no draw back in adding more bolts and I suspect, as a butcher, I will look into this. Right now, I am trying to get more batteries and reroute the Nautilus plumbing fiasco worked out.

 

[Scott'n'Wendy]

Lippert frames have had this issue for years and years. I had to test the pin box deflection (as they called it back then) for the same issue back in 2008 or 9? It was a 2005 trailer. If the pin box moved up into the filon more than 10mm....it needed to be repaired.

To the OP, I believe you meant GD rv's. Not Reflections. The flex issue, from what I have heard is only on Solitudes and Momentums. But imo, is on every brand trailer....the heavy ones.

 

[Calbar]

What proof do you have that the Grand Design workers are paid by the piece?

I spent most of my career as a flat rate Mercedes tech and I do know for a fact that if I left 3 bolts [out of 5] on a wheel, it would indeed save some time. I also know that the comeback would be severe and someone could die. When I was first hired, you paid parts, labor, rental, and the tow bill if you were found responsible for any comeback.

I've worked with and hired hundreds of technicians and although I think 95% of them were hacks, I do not remember anyone that would have purposely done what you are implying. If there was one, they would not have been there a long time. They could not afford to.

I highly doubt of any of us think RV's are overbuilt but I also think many of us could not afford one that was. Short of a Semi, I doubt there would be many that could pull it.

I suspect that Grand Design figured two mounting bolts were good enough. Anything more would be overbuilt. I also suspect that most of us think 5 bolts would be better. Most of us are Americans and most of us believe that bigger is better and more is more better. I see no draw back in adding more bolts and I suspect, as a butcher, I will look into this. Right now, I am trying to get more batteries and reroute the Nautilus plumbing fiasco worked out.

I don't have conclusive proof. What I have seen and heard on forums (taken with a grain of salt of course) is that the workers run around like chickens with their head cut off to get the job done as fast as possible. AKA piece work because they get to go home once they meet their quota for the day. Is this the same at Grand Design, don't know but they are in the same snack bracket as all the other manufacturers and the same area so I doubt they run the plants any differently. This is very different than working as a Mercedes tech or even a Volkswagen or big 3 tech. If you have also watched the Lippert frame flex interviews with the chief engineer he states that all lag bolts need to be put in and that it is a complete system that includes the "house" being bolted on properly during the build process (all lag bolts).

There is also a TSB for this from Grand Design. Either way there is an issue here with missing bolts that Grand Design seems to have stepped up to correct whether it's the workers on the assembly line or management or both it is still not right.

Rob

 

[goducks14]

They're paid by the hour with incentives like most every other RV manufacture out there.

As far as frame flex on anything but larger full profile and toy haulers I highly doubt there's enough weight added to smaller 5th wheels. The pin weights are low to begin with. Most every frame flex issue I've seen in the last 12 years has been full profile or large toy haulers.

 

[dbphillips]

Maybe GD would only use 2 of 5, but it's a terrible practice to trust low skill workers (and probably high turnover, as well) to get the correct locations each time. Given the evidence, my money says there should be 5. Lippert are supposed to be the experts, right?

 

[Butcher]

I'm no expert and I don't think there are many here either. We all have our opinion but I really do not think anyone knows for certain how many bolts are suppose to be installed at the factory. As I mentioned before, I worked with a lot of idiots but I also have worked with some real professionals too. I am the first to throw a technician under the bus, but I do know it sucked that I worked at a dealership for 30 years and although my name was not on the building, if you talked to me, I stood by my word.

I suspect there are those people at Grand Designs plant that do good work and it sucks that we are the first to bad mouth them based on opinions that are not based on facts.

As a professional auto mechanic, I am not going to be the first to cast stones.

 

[RVingwithJessandChris]

Would someone please share a link to this TSB that has been mentioned for the Solitudes? I have yet to see one.

 

[Desertdawg-MGRV]

Does anyone know when this frame flex issue started? My Reflection 337rls isn't small, but it's also a 2015 model. I don't see bedroom trim or outside trim pulling out, and my pin box seems very rigid on and off the hitch. Did they build better "in the old days"?

 

[Calbar]

Would someone please share a link to this TSB that has been mentioned for the Solitudes? I have yet to see one.

I haven't seen the TSB and on another forum the moderators who had seen it had specific instructions not to share it until Grand Design posted it since there was still work going on.

I have searched for it on the net and have not been able to find it but I have an appointment at a dealer in July to have the TSB done.

Rob

 

[ajg617]

I haven't seen the TSB and on another forum the moderators who had seen it had specific instructions not to share it until Grand Design posted it since there was still work going on.

I have searched for it on the net and have not been able to find it but I have an appointment at a dealer in July to have the TSB done.

Rob

I asked my dealer and they showed it to me. Hopefully your dealer would do the same. Just a quick note, the dealer we purchased from did not know about the TSB until I asked and they have had no GD customers in with frame flex issues. They are a very large high volume GD dealership which doesn't prove anything, but thought I'd mention it.

john

 

[Dutchman2]

After following several threads pointing to some momentums and solitudes having frame issues, it got my curiosity up to check our unit. We have >10,000 miles on our unit now. I intended to check the visible welds without dropping the front filon. There was no reason based on no visual movement in the outside corner sealing areas or inside bedroom closet area.
When looking in the front storage area I did see what appeared to be a missed structural frame weld. No cracks or visual movement was evident in this area yet it was a concern as the opposite side was fully welded out in the same area. I contacted GD and supplied pictures. Within hours they had me connected to a Lippert service team member. After reviewing the pictures they agreed a service tech needed to review the unit based on the frame area and structural location.
A few days later the tech arrived and after taking pictures and reviewing with his Lippert team it was determined that the factory had missed the weld and it was confirmed to be in what would be considered a critical frame support area. In short order the welding was completed. Good piece of mind to have these type issues reviewed/repaired. It never hurts to do a quick visuals to catch potential issues down the road.

Dutchman2

 

[dbphillips]

Probably why they extended warranty to 5 years from 3 and made it transferable.