Furrion Tankless Water Heater - Cold Weather

[Second Chance]

Did the Suburban fit the existing opening for the Furrion ok? I am planning the same upgrade.

[MENTION=51581]HowardC[/MENTION] -

In a thread this long, it can be difficult to determine who you are addressing. Here are a few tips:

1) If you use "Reply With Quote" (to the right of "Reply") as I have here, folks will know to whom you are responding and that person will get a notification.

2) You can also tag folks using the "@" symbol and their user name (as I have done yours) - they'll also get a notification that way.

Rob

 

[HowardC]

[MENTION=51581]HowardC[/MENTION] -

In a thread this long, it can be difficult to determine who you are addressing. Here are a few tips:

1) If you use "Reply With Quote" (to the right of "Reply") as I have here, folks will know to whom you are responding and that person will get a notification.

2) You can also tag folks using the "@" symbol and their user name (as I have done yours) - they'll also get a notification that way.

Rob

Thank you! Probably why I'm not a regular poster...

 

[HowardC]

View attachment 41344View attachment 41345View attachment 41346View attachment 41347

There are many good ideas here on how to make the Furrion tankless HWH survive in temperatures below 39 degrees. But it seems that basically Grand Design has left it up to each customer to design, research and build their own fix for a problem that shouldn't be the owners responsibilty to fix. For those that may be interested, I've replaced the tankless with a 6gal Suburban HWH that heats water with either the electric heating element, propane or both. I feel that's what Grand Design should have installed in the first place. The 6 gal install was an easy replacement to make and the cost was less than $600.00 all in. Now I can sleep better on those cold nights and have the option to use the campground electric instead of my propane. The water heats to 137 degrees so mixing it with the cold water should make longer showers possible.

Just my 2 cents.

Anybody wanna buy a Furrion tankless HWH used only 7 days?

Bill

[MENTION=45449]JustDucky[/MENTION]
Did the Suburban fit the existing opening from the Furrion without any modicications?

 

[WeGoode]

Did the Suburban fit the existing opening for the Furrion ok? I am planning the same upgrade.

I had the dealer replace the tankless Furrion with a Dometic 6-gal. electric/propane model. Fit was no problem, although they seemed to have some trouble with the door for some reason (I think they over-tightened the frame screws, which made the door very loose - but I put some window gaslet around the outside edge and I hope that helps.) I haven't taken it out and tried it yet, but I will soon, and will let you all know how it works. I would think the Suburban would fit as well, since they all seem to be somewhat similar size/shape.

 

[Ynot4me2]

I had the dealer replace the tankless Furrion with a Dometic 6-gal. electric/propane model. Fit was no problem, although they seemed to have some trouble with the door for some reason (I think they over-tightened the frame screws, which made the door very loose - but I put some window gaslet around the outside edge and I hope that helps.) I haven't taken it out and tried it yet, but I will soon, and will let you all know how it works. I would think the Suburban would fit as well, since they all seem to be somewhat similar size/shape.

Did they run a dedicated 120v line for the new WH?

 

[WeGoode]

Did they run a dedicated 120v line for the new WH?

Yes, they did. They basically replaced a single breaker that was used for the washer/dryer hookup (which we have no intention of using) with a double one, so the water heater runs through that. He also installed a double switch (one for the electric, one for the gas) underneath the drawers in the bedroom. Not the most convenient place, I'll admit, but we'll get used to it. I just hope I don't accidentally kick it on or off on my nightly journey to the head.

 

[Camfilly21]

I hope Grand Design hears loud and clear from people about this. The conventional water heaters worked fine. After reading this thread and others like it, it seems the tank less have a lot of downside, especially when dry camping, which we do a lot.

My wife and I recently were considering trading our current rig in, after learning all the new models only offer tank less no way!

 

[NB Canada]

I hope Grand Design hears loud and clear from people about this. The conventional water heaters worked fine. After reading this thread and others like it, it seems the tank less have a lot of downside, especially when dry camping, which we do a lot.

My wife and I recently were considering trading our current rig in, after learning all the new models only offer tank less no way!

It is only because Grand Design is deep in bed with Lippert and Furrion which imo will be their demise

If Furrion made a tank WH they would have likely stayed with tank types but Furrion only has tankless and I am sure that is all they will ever use no matter what people want

 

[JustDucky]

I've been away from these forums for awhile but find it interesting GD hasn't stepped up to the plate on this issue, especially since they had a great reputation for having a great product. (which is why I bought one)

On the positive side... the Suburban 6 gal HWH has been performing well... even in 20 degree temps.

Guess there's no joy in Mudville anymore.

Bill

 

[NB Canada]

I've been away from these forums for awhile but find it interesting GD hasn't stepped up to the plate on this issue, especially since they had a great reputation for having a great product. (which is why I bought one)

On the positive side... the Suburban 6 gal HWH has been performing well... even in 20 degree temps.

Guess there's no joy in Mudville anymore.

Bill

I explained it above. Furrion doesn’t make a tank WH

 

[KIMandALLEN1988]

Our new 397 arrived at our dealer yesterday. Our PDI is next week, but I stopped by today to take a quick look at it. While ordered with the traditional water heater, it showed up with the tankless model. I think we just missed the cutoff. We toured GD last month and most of the triple axle Momentums still had the old tank style. I read on this long, but very informative thread that Furion has installed some freeze protection in the new units. How do I know if I have this new style or the older Gen 1 type? Thank you very much! AP

 

[NB Canada]

Our new 397 arrived at our dealer yesterday. Our PDI is next week, but I stopped by today to take a quick look at it. While ordered with the traditional water heater, it showed up with the tankless model. I think we just missed the cutoff. We toured GD last month and most of the triple axle Momentums still had the old tank style. I read on this long, but very informative thread that Furion has installed some freeze protection in the new units. How do I know if I have this new style or the older Gen 1 type? Thank you very much! AP

There is a sheet of paper that will be with the trailer listing all of the options with serial numbers
Get them to check

 

[WondersAwait]

Don't rely on someone else to check your TWH via serial number if you are at possible risk at having a nasty surprise in cold weather. If you have one of these TWH and are curious, the surefire way is to open up the outside cover of your Water Heater, then remove the black plastic panel that covers the board.



I've marked the picture above with green circles where there are a couple tabs that need to be lifted to open the cover and expose the board. Once the tabs are lifted (careful not to break the plastic, especially if its cold) the cover should just swing open freely but be slightly attached on a couple of the right side wires. You can open this panel without having to disconnect anything. See below for open panel.




Once the cover is open, take a look at the board. There are a couple very minor differences in the gen 1 and gen 2 boards, in the top left by the power connection. Take a look at the capacitor and diode placement that I have circled in red below. The top half of the image is Gen 1 and the bottom is Gen 2 with freeze protection. This is how you can know for sure which you have.




For those looking to change theirs out, it really is extremely simple. In fact, if you did the above to check then you've already done the hardest part. After this you simply unplug the cables connected to the board and then plug them into the new board. It's held to the TWH by 4 screws. The wires all come off with little clips and you don't need to rewire anything, just unplug and plug in the clips. The plugs all only fit into one place and if you're uncertain, take a picture of the plugs before you disconnect anything and then reference it while connecting the new one. Changing this out is literally a 15 minute job if you have any comfort level with this type of stuff, and if you don't it's still doable but probably 30 minutes to account for you taking your time.

 

[Soundsailor]

Don't rely on someone else to check your TWH via serial number if you are at possible risk at having a nasty surprise in cold weather. If you have one of these TWH and are curious, the surefire way is to open up the outside cover of your Water Heater, then remove the black plastic panel that covers the board.

I've marked the picture above with green circles where there are a couple tabs that need to be lifted to open the cover and expose the board. Once the tabs are lifted (careful not to break the plastic, especially if its cold) the cover should just swing open freely but be slightly attached on a couple of the right side wires. You can open this panel without having to disconnect anything. See below for open panel.


Once the cover is open, take a look at the board. There are a couple very minor differences in the gen 1 and gen 2 boards, in the top right by the power connection. Take a look at the capacitor and diode placement that I have circled in red below. The top half of the image is Gen 1 and the bottom is Gen 2 with freeze protection. This is how you can know for sure which you have.


For those looking to change theirs out, it really is extremely simple. In fact, if you did the above to check then you've already done the hardest part. After this you simply unplug the cables connected to the board and then plug them into the new board. It's held to the TWH by 4 screws. The wires all come off with little clips and you don't need to rewire anything, just unplug and plug in the clips. The plugs all only fit into one place and if you're uncertain, take a picture of the plugs before you disconnect anything and then reference it while connecting the new one. Changing this out is literally a 15 minute job if you have any comfort level with this type of stuff, and if you don't it's still doable but probably 30 minutes to account for you taking your time.

Great job with this writeup [MENTION=49006]WondersAwait[/MENTION], this is very clear and should help anyone with the TWH that wants to know which board they have.

 

[bdelcurto]

Don't rely on someone else to check your TWH via serial number if you are at possible risk at having a nasty surprise in cold weather. If you have one of these TWH and are curious, the surefire way is to open up the outside cover of your Water Heater, then remove the black plastic panel that covers the board.

View attachment 45510

I've marked the picture above with green circles where there are a couple tabs that need to be lifted to open the cover and expose the board. Once the tabs are lifted (careful not to break the plastic, especially if its cold) the cover should just swing open freely but be slightly attached on a couple of the right side wires. You can open this panel without having to disconnect anything. See below for open panel.

View attachment 45511


Once the cover is open, take a look at the board. There are a couple very minor differences in the gen 1 and gen 2 boards, in the top left by the power connection. Take a look at the capacitor and diode placement that I have circled in red below. The top half of the image is Gen 1 and the bottom is Gen 2 with freeze protection. This is how you can know for sure which you have.

View attachment 45512


For those looking to change theirs out, it really is extremely simple. In fact, if you did the above to check then you've already done the hardest part. After this you simply unplug the cables connected to the board and then plug them into the new board. It's held to the TWH by 4 screws. The wires all come off with little clips and you don't need to rewire anything, just unplug and plug in the clips. The plugs all only fit into one place and if you're uncertain, take a picture of the plugs before you disconnect anything and then reference it while connecting the new one. Changing this out is literally a 15 minute job if you have any comfort level with this type of stuff, and if you don't it's still doable but probably 30 minutes to account for you taking your time.

[MENTION=49006]WondersAwait[/MENTION], thanks for this information. I believe I may have posted the first or one of the first threads on this tankless WH/Freeze issue back in early 2021. It's here in case anyone wants to see that thread...https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/sho...kless-water-heater-in-cold-weather-conditions

Question for you on this gen 2 board. Did Grand Design replace it for you or did you have to purchase it? If you purchased it, how much was it?

Thanks again.

 

[WondersAwait]

I paid out of pocket for it. It was just over $100 purchased directly from Lippert, part number 2022006595.

I called customer service several times and tried to get them to replace it pleading up an down about how I intended to use the unit in cold weather as it's advertised and explaining the MANY people who have had issues with doing this, unfortunately they didn't care at all which was super disappointing. I knew this was a problem with this TWH before buying the RV because I did so much research and saw others posting, so I planned around this flaw for cold weather. I can only imagine how upset I would be if I was surprised by it failing on me. I was exploring changing the unit out entirely with a tried and true tanked unit or possibly a better designed tankless like the Truma but I just couldn't justify the cost because the Furrion has worked really well for us despite knowing that it was a cold-weather-time-bomb. I also played around with DIY solutions like heat wrap or heating elements, but all those required a good amount of work and almost as much money as it would take to just replace the board, so as soon as I heard about this option I jumped on it.

I've heard that Grand Design is replacing the Furrion TWH with a full Gen 2 unit on those that break but you have to go through the hassle of having it actually break and fail and then deal with the headache/delays of warranty work. I love Grand Design but this is a missed customer service opportunity especially since they absolutely know about the problem and are just selectively ignoring owners. I considered not winterizing my rig while driving home from Florida to Chicago in January and letting the cold do it's thing, they submitting a warranty claim while my unit was away for several months during the rest of the winter but again it was a headache I didn't want to deal with. I don't condone anyone intentionally breaking theirs for warranty replacement and cannot guarantee that they are being covered, just FYI.

I can confirm that although it sucks to spend the extra $100, it was a super easy DIY fix and I'm happy to not worry about this. The worry I do have now is that I personally don't like the idea of driving with Propane on even though many people think it's fine to do. I just can't get around the safety concern knowing that a tire blowout could have steel belts clipping a propane line run by them. Unfortunately the design of the new board requires you to keep propane turned on for it to work as it kicks the propane TWH on and cycles warm water when the ambient temp is measured below 39 degrees. I will likely be purchasing 2 GasStop emergency shut off valves for my tanks as a precaution to help mitigate some of the risk.

 

[bdelcurto]

I paid out of pocket for it. It was just over $100 purchased directly from Lippert, part number 2022006595.

I called customer service several times and tried to get them to replace it pleading up an down about how I intended to use the unit in cold weather as it's advertised and explaining the MANY people who have had issues with doing this, unfortunately they didn't care at all which was super disappointing. I knew this was a problem with this TWH before buying the RV because I did so much research and saw others posting, so I planned around this flaw for cold weather. I can only imagine how upset I would be if I was surprised by it failing on me. I was exploring changing the unit out entirely with a tried and true tanked unit or possibly a better designed tankless like the Truma but I just couldn't justify the cost because the Furrion has worked really well for us despite knowing that it was a cold-weather-time-bomb. I also played around with DIY solutions like heat wrap or heating elements, but all those required a good amount of work and almost as much money as it would take to just replace the board, so as soon as I heard about this option I jumped on it.

I've heard that Grand Design is replacing the Furrion TWH with a full Gen 2 unit on those that break but you have to go through the hassle of having it actually break and fail and then deal with the headache/delays of warranty work. I love Grand Design but this is a missed customer service opportunity especially since they absolutely know about the problem and are just selectively ignoring owners. I considered not winterizing my rig while driving home from Florida to Chicago in January and letting the cold do it's thing, they submitting a warranty claim while my unit was away for several months during the rest of the winter but again it was a headache I didn't want to deal with. I don't condone anyone intentionally breaking theirs for warranty replacement and cannot guarantee that they are being covered, just FYI.

I can confirm that although it sucks to spend the extra $100, it was a super easy DIY fix and I'm happy to not worry about this. The worry I do have now is that I personally don't like the idea of driving with Propane on even though many people think it's fine to do. I just can't get around the safety concern knowing that a tire blowout could have steel belts clipping a propane line run by them. Unfortunately the design of the new board requires you to keep propane turned on for it to work as it kicks the propane TWH on and cycles warm water when the ambient temp is measured below 39 degrees. I will likely be purchasing 2 GasStop emergency shut off valves for my tanks as a precaution to help mitigate some of the risk.

Another great post. Thank you for the response. I completely agree with your take on this issue.

I guess I can see why Grand Design wouldn't necessarily offer the fix to every who has the Gen 1 board as it's just not a problem for every owner, depending on how they camp. However, they absolutely should step up to the plate for anyone who brings it to their attention and requests that they address it.

One of the things that sold me on Grand Design was their reputation for taking care of their customers, especially when there was a problem or in this case a design flaw. Without doubt, this TWH problem was a very poor design decision. It seems more and more, however, that Grand Design is falling into line with just about every other manufacture with spotty customer service and failing to stand behind their product when an issue like this comes up.

This is my 3rd fifth wheel and probably not my last. It's things like this that blur the line between a good company and a great one. A company's response to problems or poor design issues with their product tend to either bolster customer loyalty or erode it. It seems, in reading about some of the disappointing decisions coming out of Grand Design that many are experiencing the latter.

True, in the grand scheme of things, $100 isn't that big a deal and I'll probably plunk that money down to fix the problem. That said, Grand Design could have gained much more in customer loyalty and word of mouth advertising had they decided to just address the problem they created. Look at all the negative "advertising" they're getting in this one post. Truth be told, they can probably get that board for 1/2 of what your or I would pay for it. That's a pretty inexpensive customer loyalty program.

 

[KIMandALLEN1988]

Furrion TWH circuit board

[MENTION=49006]WondersAwait[/MENTION]

We have our PDI on our new 2023 397 this Friday. I stopped by the dealer today and this is a photo of the Furrion TWH circuit board. It looks like the older Gen 1 style to me. Any idea why it would have a different model number? Mine ends in AFA-AM. The "AF" is not present on most of the other olders models I've seen. I was hoping, perhaps naively, that this may mean "AF anti-freeze." I'll see what the dealer and the manual have to say on Friday, but it looks like I may be ordering the new board from Lippert. Thanks for any input.

 

[WondersAwait]

[MENTION=49006]WondersAwait[/MENTION]

We have our PDI on our new 2023 397 this Friday. I stopped by the dealer today and this is a photo of the Furrion TWH circuit board. It looks like the older Gen 1 style to me. Any idea why it would have a different model number? Mine ends in AFA-AM. The "AF" is not present on most of the other olders models I've seen. I was hoping, perhaps naively, that this may mean "AF anti-freeze." I'll see what the dealer and the manual have to say on Friday, but it looks like I may be ordering the new board from Lippert. Thanks for any input. View attachment 45607

That certainly looks like the Gen 1 board layout, however searching the Manufacturer Reference number of FWH09AFA-AM leads me to the following LCI page: https://store.lci1.com/furrion-tank...-antifreeze-protection-24gpm-white-2021132340

The specifications section on that LCI page clearly states this model supersedes the SKU and MRN of the generation 1 that came from my factory in my rig, and the description on that page says it has freeze protection. I would love if you can take some more pics of the board with the top left a little closer/clear and also of the Manufacturer Reference Number so that we can try to narrow this down for you and anyone else that is working with these TWH units. I spoke with at least 2 other people online who replaced their gen 1 boards with gen 2's ordered direct from LCI and they had the exact same differences on the board that I indicated on my photos, but this throws a wrench in that thought process.

 

[KIMandALLEN1988]

That certainly looks like the Gen 1 board layout, however searching the Manufacturer Reference number of FWH09AFA-AM leads me to the following LCI page: https://store.lci1.com/furrion-tank...-antifreeze-protection-24gpm-white-2021132340

The specifications section on that LCI page clearly states this model supersedes the SKU and MRN of the generation 1 that came from my factory in my rig, and the description on that page says it has freeze protection. I would love if you can take some more pics of the board with the top left a little closer/clear and also of the Manufacturer Reference Number so that we can try to narrow this down for you and anyone else that is working with these TWH units. I spoke with at least 2 other people online who replaced their gen 1 boards with gen 2's ordered direct from LCI and they had the exact same differences on the board that I indicated on my photos, but this throws a wrench in that thought process.

Thank you for the quick reply! I searched my TWH model number and did not find the information you did, so again thanks. I was already pretty confident I was not an internet whiz-kid, but yikes, this confirms it! I'm satisfied reading the Lippert description of our TWH model number that we have freeze protection and are good to go. Very happy about this as we frequently are out in borderline temps. Assuming all goes well at the PDI Friday we should have the unit home and accessible for more photos. We are pretty excited to get the new unit. We were happy in general with our GD 351, but I think this 397 will be great for us. AP