Group 31 Battery

[Captcolour]

My 2021 Solitude 380FL has one Group 27 deep cycle lead acid battery. Don't know if my converter can handle lithium, so at least want to move to a Group 27 AGM Deep Cycle battery. Problem I'm having is that I can't find one. Can find Group 24 AGM and Group 31 AGM. Tractor Supply has an Interstate Group 31 AGM with a two year warranty which is what I'm leaning towards. I know I will need a slightly bigger battery box.

Any issues moving from the Group 27 to the Group 31 AGM Deep Cycle?

 

[txarsoncop]

Any issues moving from the Group 27 to the Group 31 AGM Deep Cycle?

Just that, like you mentioned, you may need a bigger battery box and you'll be adding a little more weight to your RV.

If your RV came with solar you may want to consider switching to lithium. My Transcend 261BH doesn't have a lithium compatible converter but the solar controller will work with lithium. I added a 100Ah LiTime group 24 battery and shaved a fair bit of weight off of the OEM lead acid battery plus gained a lot more usable capacity. My converter will charge the battery to 80% and the solar controller will top it off.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

Just that, like you mentioned, you may need a bigger battery box and you'll be adding a little more weight to your RV.

If your RV came with solar you may want to consider switching to lithium. My Transcend 261BH doesn't have a lithium compatible converter but the solar controller will work with lithium. I added a 100Ah LiTime group 24 battery and shaved a fair bit of weight off of the OEM lead acid battery plus gained a lot more usable capacity. My converter will charge the battery to 80% and the solar controller will top it off.

Any issues operating the slides and/or the leveling legs with just the one 100AH LiTime battery?

 

[dryfly]

My 2021 Solitude 380FL has one Group 27 deep cycle lead acid battery. Don't know if my converter can handle lithium, so at least want to move to a Group 27 AGM Deep Cycle battery. Problem I'm having is that I can't find one. Can find Group 24 AGM and Group 31 AGM. Tractor Supply has an Interstate Group 31 AGM with a two year warranty which is what I'm leaning towards. I know I will need a slightly bigger battery box.

Any issues moving from the Group 27 to the Group 31 AGM Deep Cycle?

Whichever group 31 battery you go with here is a good battery box. I just got one in and I'm very pleased with it:

Amazon.com

 

[JPS350]

The batteries you are looking at really aren't true deep cycle batteries. They are marine hybrids.

You would get a much better bang for your buck if you just installed a pair of gc2 golf cart batteries. You would have to switch to a double battery box sized for them or a pair of boxes. You might also want to strengthen the battery box support for the extra weight.

Price wise, you'd spend less for 2x gc2 batteries than the agm you're looking at. They would give you 215 amp hours instead of 100 and be rated for approx. twice the # of cycles as an agm hybrid, from what I've read. FWIW, the Duracell branded gc2 golf cart batteries (available at Sam's club) are a great affordable choice. Made by East Penn and basically the same batteries as their Deka branded ones. I've used them on battery banks on 2 boats, an off-grid cabin, and on my trailer.

 

[traveldawg]

If you switch to either AGM or Lithium you don't need a battery box anymore. At least not unless you just want to put it in a box. Neither need venting to the outside.

 

[Riverbug]

You can go any of those routes. Group 31 AGM, golf cart batteries, or LiFePO4. The LFP battery will handle your slides like any 12V would, with obvious other differences. Even if you do not have a lithium compatible converter/charger, you can still use it. It just won't charge to 100% and it will not charge as quickly as a lithium charger. But you'll still get more usable capacity than lead acid without causing degradation when you deeply discharge it. All fine options whatever you decide to do.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

You can go any of those routes. Group 31 AGM, golf cart batteries, or LiFePO4. The LFP battery will handle your slides like any 12V would, with obvious other differences. Even if you do not have a lithium compatible converter/charger, you can still use it. It just won't charge to 100% and it will not charge as quickly as a lithium charger. But you'll still get more usable capacity than lead acid without causing degradation when you deeply discharge it. All fine options whatever you decide to do.

The reason I asked about the slides/leveling legs, is that I've read a couple posts from people on other forums, that have posted messages from LiTime saying their lithium batteries are not suitable for use with hydraulic pumps. So just wondering.

 

[Riverbug]

If you switch to either AGM or Lithium you don't need a battery box anymore. At least not unless you just want to put it in a box. Neither need venting to the outside.

Actually, AGM is still lead acid and requires venting...

 

[Riverbug]

The reason I asked about the slides/leveling legs, is that I've read a couple posts from people on other forums, that have posted messages from LiTime saying their lithium batteries are not suitable for use with hydraulic pumps. So just wondering.

Interesting. I didn't see that in the literature. The standard 100AH battery is rated at 100A continuous so I wonder why they would say it isn't suitable for hydraulic slides. What amperage do those slides pull?

 

[Hoopy Frood]

Interesting. I didn't see that in the literature. The standard 100AH battery is rated at 100A continuous so I wonder why they would say it isn't suitable for hydraulic slides. What amperage do those slides pull?

The most the pump should pull should be 80 amps, but mine usually pulls about 60-65 amps. So it shouldn't be an issue, but was just curious. The posters said they had sent an email to LiTime after having issues with their battery/ies and the pump, that's, supposedly, when they received the notice about not being suitable. Seemed very strange to me.

 

[Riverbug]

The most the pump should pull should be 80 amps, but mine usually pulls about 60-65 amps. So it shouldn't be an issue, but was just curious. The posters said they had sent an email to LiTime after having issues with their battery/ies and the pump, that's, supposedly, when they received the notice about not being suitable. Seemed very strange to me.

Huh, yeah that seems strange but who knows. Maybe the cells can't really hold up to the rated BMS amperage? That's a head scratcher.

 

[TimtheToolMan]

The reason I asked about the slides/leveling legs, is that I've read a couple posts from people on other forums, that have posted messages from LiTime saying their lithium batteries are not suitable for use with hydraulic pumps. So just wondering.

Actually reading a series of emails from current LiTime owner and LiTime support saying not to use the battery will Lippert Ground Control 3.0. We never got to the bottom of it, but it appeared that the warranty would be lost if used with "jacks" and specifically Ground Control. This was with 230Ah 200A continuous and 600A 5 sec peak battery! The issue, as best I could estimate, was related to surge currents that fuses and circuit breakers will not protect.

Added: I do not have information right now with me but surge starting peaks can be many more times higher (guess 3-6) than running current and common circuit breakers can hold current levels many times (guess 7x) more than rating for up to 1.5 seconds. There are more specialty products but that is not what we normally use. Please look up numbers or ask me later for specifics.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

Actually reading a series of emails from current LiTime owner and LiTime support saying not to use the battery will Lippert Ground Control 3.0. We never got to the bottom of it, but it appeared that the warranty would be lost if used with "jacks" and specifically Ground Control. This was with 230Ah 200A continuous and 600A 5 sec peak battery! The issue, as best I could estimate, was related to surge currents that fuses and circuit breakers will not protect.

Added: I do not have information right now with me but surge starting peaks can be many more times higher (guess 3-6) than running current and common circuit breakers can hold current levels many times (guess 7x) more than rating for up to 1.5 seconds. There are more specialty products but that is not what we normally use. Please look up numbers or ask me later for specifics.

That seems odd. As little as I know about lithium batteries, I thought they were all basically the same. I can see quality differences, but I would think they would all be able to do the same things. Maybe this is just a difference with the LiTime brand. I've not heard of any others giving the same warning.

 

[TimtheToolMan]

@Hoppy Frood My thoughts exactly and hard to believe. LiTime is not gaining sales by telling people that battery is an issue with these applications. Question is, does LiTime have a major BMS issue?

Will Prowse stated: They used to run a third party BMS and I can't remember the name. It's in a past video. But now they make all of their BMS in-house.

Time for circuit breaker to trip.

From COPILOT: Common surge currents for DC motors, also known as inrush currents, can be significantly higher than the motor's normal operating current. Here are some typical values:​

1. Startup Surge Current: When a DC motor starts, the inrush current can be 10 to 20 times higher than the rated current. For example, if a motor's rated current is 10 amps, the startup surge current could be between 100 to 200 amps.
2. Load Surge Current: When the load on the motor suddenly increases, the current can also surge temporarily. This surge is usually less than the startup surge but can still be several times the normal operating current.

I am tempted to ask for more detail on one of the popular solar/battery sites but I am cautious going down that rabbit hole because I am not having problems yet.

Added: Lippert said that Ground Control 3.0 can be run with 60Ah battery.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

@Hoppy Frood My thoughts exactly and hard to believe. LiTime is not gaining sales by telling people that battery is an issue with these applications. Question is, does LiTime have a major BMS issue?

Will Prowse stated: They used to run a third party BMS and I can't remember the name. It's in a past video. But now they make all of their BMS in-house.

Time for circuit breaker to trip.

From COPILOT: Common surge currents for DC motors, also known as inrush currents, can be significantly higher than the motor's normal operating current. Here are some typical values:​

1. Startup Surge Current: When a DC motor starts, the inrush current can be 10 to 20 times higher than the rated current. For example, if a motor's rated current is 10 amps, the startup surge current could be between 100 to 200 amps.
2. Load Surge Current: When the load on the motor suddenly increases, the current can also surge temporarily. This surge is usually less than the startup surge but can still be several times the normal operating current.

I am tempted to ask for more detail on one of the popular solar/battery sites but I am cautious going down that rabbit hole because I am not having problems yet.

Added: Lippert said that Ground Control 3.0 can be run with 60Ah battery.

Thank you for that info.

 

[TimtheToolMan]

LiTime wrote in one email (I am cautious adding more because this email was not sent to me, but to someone I have be discussing issue with) Email did not state what equipment tests were done with:

after extensive testing by our research and development department, has been shown to generate starting currents that could damage our BMS board,

 

[TimtheToolMan]

All these LiTime questions just bring up more questions like: if they are not allowed for hydraulic slides, and DC motor leveling systems are they OK for:

• DC motor slides (like Swintek...)

or

• Front lift jacks on travel trailers

With what I have read from very credible sources and not getting any kind of OK response when contacting LiTime (they blew me off after initial email) about similar products, it would not surprise me that they would say the front lift is a jack and the slide DC motors need starting batteries so do not use with LiTime battery.

In the absence of data, what else am I to do but speculate?

 

[Steven@147]

This is the Lithium battery I installed and we do have the Ground Control 3.0 electric leveling system, two rack slides and a schwintek bedroom slide. I hadn't read any info on not using it with certain kind of RV systems.

Been using it now since last May and so far the slides and leveling system have worked fine, actually a little better than the lead acid battery we had - but then again it was 5 years old. But I read this posted info interesting. Time will tell I guess. I've never put an amp meter on any circuit to see what it is actually pulling initially with DC motor startup.

 

[Riverbug]

These are all interesting posts. I used an SOK 206AH battery for 1.5 years on our 22MLE and noticed no issues with it handling slides (or anything else). It never occurred to me to ask about warranty if using with slides. I don't actually know how Schwintek slides compare to hydraulic or Ground Control with respect to amperage so not sure if that makes a big difference or not. I have not checked the in-rush amperage either; will have to remember to do that in the spring.