GVWR / GAWR and Curb Weight Questions

[Mark_270BN]

- Does GVWR include fuel weight?
I am finding conflicting info as to whether or not "curb weight" includes full fluids like fuel or not. I understand it does not include cargo, passengers and/or any add-ons you might add after factory.
- Has the posted door Cargo Carrying Capacity number already assumed you have a full fuel tank?

- How can one's truck have GAWRs of 6,000lbs front and 6,040lbs rear and yet only have a GVWR of 10,000lbs? Currently installed factory tires are "load range E" and rated at 3,640lbs each.

Are these definitions standardized or do some manufactures make adjustments to the definitions? I have a RAM 2500.

Thanks!

 

[llr2800]

The GVWR is the max for everything, nothing exclude or counted separate
The Payload / CCC number allows for full fuel. All people, cargo and things added since it left the factory count against this.
It is common for the front + rear to exceed the GVWR. With the 10K number I suspect it is de-rated for class, license, insurant etc. I think my F150 is less then 1K difference but GVWR is still lower

 

[Mark_270BN]

The GVWR is the max for everything, nothing exclude or counted separate
The Payload / CCC number allows for full fuel. All people, cargo and things added since it left the factory count against this.
It is common for the front + rear to exceed the GVWR. With the 10K number I suspect it is de-rated for class, license, insurant etc. I think my F150 is less then 1K difference but GVWR is still lower

Thanks. Fuel is accounted for in the CCC number.

As far as I can tell, the GVWR in this case is a legal technicality then - not an actual structural limit.

 

[llr2800]

As far as I can tell, the GVWR in this case is a legal technicality then - not an actual structural limit.

Probably, although I doubt if you will find anyone that can provide a "real number". Me personally, for non-commercial use I would stay under the axle limits and not worry about the total. With my prior TT was over GVWR and almost met axle ratings.

 

[Stealth13777]

Thanks. Fuel is accounted for in the CCC number.

As far as I can tell, the GVWR in this case is a legal technicality then - not an actual structural limit.

No way for you to know this unless you designed the vehicle. Sometimes they change a bearing in the transmission, cooling capacity for the engine or trans, oil cooler, fan size, frame thickness (verified thing on F150s), etc. etc. Since there is a whole lot more making up the vehicle than just axles, you really don’t know unless you know every single part.

If I’m a manufacturer, I’m not making 25 different axles for the various combinations of options. I’m doing maybe 2 (which is common), then rating the vehicle as a whole. It’s a shame legal requirements make it so we don’t know what is an engineering versus legal limit. If it isn’t rated right on a legal classification number (7k, 10k, 14k), it’s likely the GVWR is an actual limit. If it’s right on one of those numbers, just know the company is in the business of making $$ so every pound it can handle over its rating is costing them $$.

 

[triplethreat]

GVW is what the truck weighs at any moment in time
GVWR is the very most that the truck should ever weigh, including everything....fuel, passengers, driver, cargo, a box of kleenex, ....anything and everything
Payload or CCC is GVWR minus GVW. Let's say that you load your truck (GVWR 10,000 lbs) and you load it way up and go to the scale. The scale ticket says that your truck weighs 9990 lbs....so you have 10 lbs left before you hit the GVWR. Then you notice that the fuel gauge is sitting on "E", so you go fill up your 30 gallon tank (approx 7 lbs per gallon) and you have now added 210 lbs or so. Now you are overloaded on the payload and the GVWR of the truck by approx. 200 lbs

Here's a quick fact, bit of info.....anytime you are over payload, you are automatically over the GVWR of the truck.

Here is the order of progression in overloading. Once you reach your payload amount, any more weight will be over the payload and over the GVWR. If you keep adding more to the truck, you will eventually get to the point you reach the GAWR or one or both axles. If you then add more weight, you will get to the point that the tires have reached their rated load capacity, although that can be reached with less weight if they are not inflated to the pressure that is listed on the sidewall of the tire. Lot's of folks think that the psi number on the side of the tire is just the max psi inflation number....and it is, but it is also the pressure that you need to have the tire inflated to, in order for that tire to provide the listed load capacity rating....which is also listed on the side of the tire in the same located at the pressure number. Hope this helps a bit

 

[Mark_270BN]

No way for you to know this unless you designed the vehicle. Sometimes they change a bearing in the transmission, cooling capacity for the engine or trans, oil cooler, fan size, frame thickness (verified thing on F150s), etc. etc. Since there is a whole lot more making up the vehicle than just axles, you really don’t know unless you know every single part.

If I’m a manufacturer, I’m not making 25 different axles for the various combinations of options. I’m doing maybe 2 (which is common), then rating the vehicle as a whole. It’s a shame legal requirements make it so we don’t know what is an engineering versus legal limit. If it isn’t rated right on a legal classification number (7k, 10k, 14k), it’s likely the GVWR is an actual limit. If it’s right on one of those numbers, just know the company is in the business of making $$ so every pound it can handle over its rating is costing them $$.

In the case of RAM, as best I can tell anyway, they only difference in a 2500 and 3500 (5th gen) is the rear suspension. 2500 has a coil and 3500 has the leaf, and they therefore have different GAWRs. But, you supposedly can't just add the GAWRs together to get a total weight allowance from a structural / safety limit standpoint. This makes no logical sense to me from a structural standpoint when the only difference is the rear suspension type.

 

[ajg617]

In the case of RAM, as best I can tell anyway, they only difference in a 2500 and 3500 (5th gen) is the rear suspension. 2500 has a coil and 3500 has the leaf, and they therefore have different GAWRs. But, you supposedly can't just add the GAWRs together to get a total weight allowance from a structural / safety limit standpoint. This makes no logical sense to me from a structural standpoint when the only difference is the rear suspension type.

3500 has a 12" rear, 2500 has 11.5". Cummins HO and Aisin trans not available on 2500. Beefier transfer case on the HO Cummins. From 2019 on, below:

https://media.stellantisnorthamerica.com/newsrelease.do?id=20518&mid=

 

[Mark_270BN]

3500 has a 12" rear, 2500 has 11.5". Cummins HO and Aisin trans not available on 2500. Beefier transfer case on the HO Cummins. From 2019 on, below:

https://media.stellantisnorthamerica.com/newsrelease.do?id=20518&mid=

Ok, what I mean is difference that translate into weight bearing capacity...or maybe I misunderstand...but how does a larger rear end ("pumpkin") HO Cummins/Aisin and transfer case make a difference in how much weight the bed will handle? I see those things you listed as improving total towing weight, not cargo weighing down on the suspension and wheels.

Are the brakes, and frame the same? What able the axles themselves? I know there are two rear diff options on the 3500 too.

 

[ajg617]

Ok, what I mean is difference that translate into weight bearing capacity...or maybe I misunderstand...but how does a larger rear end ("pumpkin") HO Cummins/Aisin and transfer case make a difference in how much weight the bed will handle? I see those things you listed as improving total towing weight, not cargo weighing down on the suspension and wheels.

Are the brakes, and frame the same? What able the axles themselves? I know there are two rear diff options on the 3500 too.

The axle tube diameter is larger with the bigger pumpkin. Bottom line, the GVWR and GAWRs are identical between SO and HO, but you lose 170lbs payload with the HO. No clue why if everything is the same. I've never seen any Stellantis confirmation on specific differences. Personally, I suspect the 2500 and 3500 frames are identical except for the coil vs. leaf but I've never seen any corroboration from Stellantis. Also note that the GVWRs for 2500s in Canada are 9900 rather than their 10000 US counterparts but there are no differences in the 3500 noted (at least for 2020).

 

[Mark_270BN]

The axle tube diameter is larger with the bigger pumpkin. Bottom line, the GVWR and GAWRs are identical between SO and HO, but you lose 170lbs payload with the HO. No clue why if everything is the same. I've never seen any Stellantis confirmation on specific differences. Personally, I suspect the 2500 and 3500 frames are identical except for the coil vs. leaf but I've never seen any corroboration from Stellantis. Also note that the GVWRs for 2500s in Canada are 9900 rather than their 10000 US counterparts but there are no differences in the 3500 noted (at least for 2020).

Thanks.

All the data you provided just reinforces to me that something is afoot...especially the 9900 in Canada vs 10000 USA. And it further leads me to believe if you ultimately want to make sure you are safe and not going to break anything, just ensure you don't bust the GAWR/tire ratings - that's it. Now, that said, I get the argument they you might be busting the GVWR and there could be legal implications and that should not be ignored, but what will actually break the truck and not be safe?

 

[CWSWine]

Here is what I believe XRated posted and explains a lot.

https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/NTEA/Memb...HowOEMsDetermineGrossVehicleWeightRating.aspx

 

[Overtaxed]

Here is what I believe XRated posted and explains a lot.

https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/NTEA/Memb...HowOEMsDetermineGrossVehicleWeightRating.aspx

That's a good explanation, but it's missing the last part of the "calculation". After going through the mechanical systems and determining a number; if that number is over the class you want/need to be in, rate it at the top of the class.

The F250 and F450 are both good examples of this. A F250 can be mechanically nearly identical to a F350. It can be 100% mechanically identical in the areas that matter for towing (wheels/tires/brakes/axles/springs/etc). Why is it rated lower? Because it's "class limited". Same thing with a F350 dually vs a F450. The 450 has bigger brakes, higher rated rims and tires and yet, somehow, a F350 can carry more in the bed?? Makes no sense until your realize that both of them are class limited, the truck could carry around a white dwarf star and not break for all we know, doesn't matter, the "answer" is 14,000 lbs.

It's frustrating and honestly dangerous. We all know that the ratings aren't "real", so many of us violate them, some by a LOT. But there is "a number" where things will fail/aren't engineered for the load and, most importantly, it becomes unsafe. Class 3 trucks have been at 14,000 for decades, the tires, brakes, wheels, axles are all light years ahead of a 1990 DRW pickup truck and yet, here we are; 14K on the nose. When you know the number is make believe, but you have no way to get a "real" number, well.. Might as well just make your own "safe" number. 14,500, 16,000, 80,000... Who the heck knows, any of those could be right..

 

[triplethreat]

That's a good explanation, but it's missing the last part of the "calculation". After going through the mechanical systems and determining a number; if that number is over the class you want/need to be in, rate it at the top of the class.

The F250 and F450 are both good examples of this. A F250 can be mechanically nearly identical to a F350. It can be 100% mechanically identical in the areas that matter for towing (wheels/tires/brakes/axles/springs/etc). Why is it rated lower? Because it's "class limited". Same thing with a F350 dually vs a F450. The 450 has bigger brakes, higher rated rims and tires and yet, somehow, a F350 can carry more in the bed?? Makes no sense until your realize that both of them are class limited, the truck could carry around a white dwarf star and not break for all we know, doesn't matter, the "answer" is 14,000 lbs.

It's frustrating and honestly dangerous. We all know that the ratings aren't "real", so many of us violate them, some by a LOT. But there is "a number" where things will fail/aren't engineered for the load and, most importantly, it becomes unsafe. Class 3 trucks have been at 14,000 for decades, the tires, brakes, wheels, axles are all light years ahead of a 1990 DRW pickup truck and yet, here we are; 14K on the nose. When you know the number is make believe, but you have no way to get a "real" number, well.. Might as well just make your own "safe" number. 14,500, 16,000, 80,000... Who the heck knows, any of those could be right..

That "class limited" may be true, but when it comes to civil cases being brought against you in a serious/fatal accident, some level of "fault" will almost certainly be assigned to you if it can be proven that you were indeed over the manufacturer's posted weight limits/restrictions. Obviously, if someone crosses over the yellow line and hits you head on, I would believe there would be more "fault" assignment to them, than to you...but you are likely to received some fault if you are over the manufacturer's posted limits....say the truck has a GVWR of 14,K lbs and you are at 15K....or 16K....or 80K as you suggested or stated. If you are at or under the weight limits/restrictions, your fault assignment will not be a factor....unless there are other issues....maybe like speeding when the accident occurred, or under the influence, or driving distracted. I'm sure that there are a host of factors that would be considered, so it stands to reason that the less exposure that you have, the less likely you will be found to have some degree of fault.

 

[Mark_270BN]

- How come in Canada they decided 2500s are rated to GVWR of 9900lbs and USA says 10000lbs? The just want to be Col Sanders and have it their way?
- How come I can selected a higher than 10k GVWR now on GM 2500s, and a higher (or lower) GVWR on 3500 Rams at no additional (or less) cost?
- How come class 6-8 trucks can add their GAWRs together, but pickups cannot?

The answer after all the trash and research I have done so far has shown that the most likely answer is what [MENTION=27816]Overtaxed[/MENTION] just said: it's an artificially low number to stay categorized in a particular class of vehicle. And good point that if you aren't going to give the real number, people will ignore the false one - and to what point? I'd argue the real number is GAWRs and tire ratings. Stay at or under those and it would be structurally sound and safe.

 

[Overtaxed]

- How come in Canada they decided 2500s are rated to GVWR of 9900lbs and USA says 10000lbs? The just want to be Col Sanders and have it their way?
- How come I can selected a higher than 10k GVWR now on GM 2500s, and a higher (or lower) GVWR on 3500 Rams at no additional (or less) cost?
- How come class 6-8 trucks can add their GAWRs together, but pickups cannot?

The answer after all the trash and research I have done so far has shown that the most likely answer is what [MENTION=27816]Overtaxed[/MENTION] just said: it's an artificially low number to stay categorized in a particular class of vehicle. And good point that if you aren't going to give the real number, people will ignore the false one - and to what point? I'd argue the real number is GAWRs and tire ratings. Stay at or under those and it would be structurally sound and safe.

There are a lot of arguments that the GVWR doesn't matter at all. Not only that it doesn't matter for safety, but that even if you are weighed, the number that matters is GAWR, and, in fact, some argue that the only number that really matter for "legal" or not is the tire ratings. If you're under them, you're "legal".

That said, I agree with you and use GAWR as the "real" number. The issue is that even GAWR is sometimes "make believe" because it's rated by the lowest component. For example, a F250 has a lower GAWR rating than a F350 (at least in some configurations/years). What's the difference? I nearly died when I heard this one, but it came down to the suggested tire pressure. The 350 suggested a higher pressure, so the GAWR was higher because the tires could handle more?!

 

[Mannyjt]

I was pouring over my weights again today and wound up coming to the conclusion that my GVWR is my limiting factor. I have 540 left in payload (GVWR) but 960 left on pin cap which equals my RAWR difference.

I'm actually surprised because I'm pulling a Reflection 150 which is supposed to be half ton towable and theres just no way. Maybe empty.

I'm considering beefing up the suspension some, Bilstein shocks and maybe bags, for the purposes of being a bit less bouncy when loaded. Either that or just trade up to a 3500HD SRW. Id LOVE to go DRW then whatever camper we got next would be guaranteed to be within capacities but I daily the truck and don't really want to deal with that or the cost of tires getting 35k a year pounded into them with a dually. Kind of torn still on how to proceed. I'm halfway to the 3500 in terms of cost if I put all that money into the suspension to begin with. Plus I've driven the 2024 Duramax and it's niiiccccee

Capacities:

Truck-
GVWR: 11300
GCWR: 27500
Curb: 8378
Payload: 2922
RAWR: 6600
5Th TWR: 17860
Max Pin: 2679

5th Wheel-
GVWR: 10995
GAWR (Each): 5100
UVW: 8648


Weights:

Loaded-
Steer Axle: 5100
Drive Axle: 5660
Trailer Axle (Combined): 7820
Combined Gross: 18580
TV Gross: 10760

Unloaded-
Steer Axle: 5100
Drive Axle: 3920 (Hitch in Bed)
Gross: 9020

Hitch Weight: 209


Calculated Weights:
Pin: 1740
Payload Use: 2382 (540 Remaining)
Trailer Gross: 9560

Allowable Extra Weight:
Rear Axle: 940
Trailer Axle: 2380
Trailer Gross: 1435
TV Gross: 540 (Payload)
Pin: 939

 

[Overtaxed]

Either that or just trade up to a 3500HD SRW. Id LOVE to go DRW then whatever camper we got next would be guaranteed to be within capacities but I daily the truck and don't really want to deal with that or the cost of tires getting 35k a year pounded into them with a dually. Kind of torn still on how to proceed. I'm halfway to the 3500 in terms of cost if I put all that money into the suspension to begin with. Plus I've driven the 2024 Duramax and it's niiiccccee

I don't know the Chevy products as well as Ford, but, make sure you're getting something for your money if you go from a 2500 to 3500SRW. In Ford, going from a 250 to a 350 SRW, depending on how the 250 is configured, can literally be "buying a new sticker". You're not getting anything that will help with towing, same tires, same brakes. If Chevy is the same, unless you're really worried about being "over sticker", I can't imagine spending the money to wind up with effectively the same level of comfort/safety.

Now, if you just want a new truck, well... By all means, always a good reason to buy a new truck!!

I say this all the time, but when looking at trucks where you're going to do a lot of towing, the question should really be "Can I possibly make a dually work" vs "Do I need a dually". It's just a much better towing experience. Going from a F150 to a F250 and towing the same trailer with both, the 250 was better, no question, but not nearly as dramatic as going from the 250 to the 450. And that's for a trailer that weights 7K!

 

[Mark_270BN]

[MENTION=54566]Mannyjt[/MENTION]

I'd like a dually too if it weren't for the fact that my truck also has to be my daily driver, so I get that...and I can't send it through the Quick Quack car wash.

 

[Mannyjt]

I don't know the Chevy products as well as Ford, but, make sure you're getting something for your money if you go from a 2500 to 3500SRW. In Ford, going from a 250 to a 350 SRW, depending on how the 250 is configured, can literally be "buying a new sticker". You're not getting anything that will help with towing, same tires, same brakes. If Chevy is the same, unless you're really worried about being "over sticker", I can't imagine spending the money to wind up with effectively the same level of comfort/safety.

Now, if you just want a new truck, well... By all means, always a good reason to buy a new truck!!

I say this all the time, but when looking at trucks where you're going to do a lot of towing, the question should really be "Can I possibly make a dually work" vs "Do I need a dually". It's just a much better towing experience. Going from a F150 to a F250 and towing the same trailer with both, the 250 was better, no question, but not nearly as dramatic as going from the 250 to the 450. And that's for a trailer that weights 7K!

This is exactly the issue I'm stuck on actually. I've been looking for a definitive "Whats different". Is it just shocks and springs? Is there a different axle? Different drivetrain components? Etc etc. I've no qualms just swapping parts to make mine a 3500 in practice but 2500 in badge but I'm also reticent to try and beef it up and wind up blowing up a 90k truck or worse putting my family and I in a dangerous situation. Nothing I'm in a hurry on I suppose but a more planted ride would be very nice.

Unfortunately dailying a dually doesn't sound like it's up my alley when I'm a field service engineer and driving 30k+ a year outside of my camping habit, otherwise, a dealership somewhere near me would have an order already haha. There's a level of wealth I'm nowhere near you need to have the 3/4 ton which I use for work and a modern tow rig.

[MENTION=54566]Mannyjt[/MENTION]

I'd like a dually too if it weren't for the fact that my truck also has to be my daily driver, so I get that...and I can't send it through the Quick Quack car wash.

(Un)Fortunately for me I have a black paint job and an addiction to (failing) to keep it nice so going through the local wash isnt a concern for me. I waste many an hour handwashing then just suffer through the winter months lol.