GVWR / GAWR and Curb Weight Questions

[Overtaxed]

This is exactly the issue I'm stuck on actually. I've been looking for a definitive "Whats different". Is it just shocks and springs? Is there a different axle? Different drivetrain components? .

It depends on the model, but, in most cases, it's very, very slight. I'll tell you this, I'd take a 250/2500 with airbags over a 350/3500 without them; no question in my mind that would offer a better/more controlled and safer towing experience (assuming, of course, same model year/engine/etc). Also, if you go down this route, take the tires up to their max rated pressure (ignore what's on the door sticker, look at the tire itself) to get the highest possible capacity.

The "scary failure" is a tire, that's what stands the best chance of hurting you if it goes out unexpectedly. Brakes too, but AFAIK, there's no difference in brakes between 250/350s in any model year (and one of the few advantages to a 450, bigger brakes). I would never run with my tires overloaded, that's asking for it.

IMHO, you're not buying any safety at all going from a same model year 250 to 350. If you're not concerned about stickers, add a good set of airbags and call it done. If you really want to go all out, swap out your tires for 19.5's (Rickson makes these kits), that'll give you a lot more tire under you and 19.5's wear like iron towing. Unfortunately, they will also likely impact the ride a bit, they are hard/stiff tires, without the give/cushion of a typical LT tire.

 

[huntindog]

This is exactly the issue I'm stuck on actually. I've been looking for a definitive "Whats different". Is it just shocks and springs? Is there a different axle? Different drivetrain components? Etc etc. I've no qualms just swapping parts to make mine a 3500 in practice but 2500 in badge but I'm also reticent to try and beef it up and wind up blowing up a 90k truck or worse putting my family and I in a dangerous situation. Nothing I'm in a hurry on I suppose but a more planted ride would be very nice.

Unfortunately dailying a dually doesn't sound like it's up my alley when I'm a field service engineer and driving 30k+ a year outside of my camping habit, otherwise, a dealership somewhere near me would have an order already haha. There's a level of wealth I'm nowhere near you need to have the 3/4 ton which I use for work and a modern tow rig.



(Un)Fortunately for me I have a black paint job and an addiction toTh (failing) to keep it nice so going through the local wash isnt a concern for me. I waste many an hour handwashing then just suffer through the winter months lol.

The difference can be obvious,such as overload springs, or invisible as in a different bearing in the transmission. IMO it just isn't worth the trouble trying to make a 250 into a 350 etc. The price difference between the trucks isn't that much.
I know a guy who did put 250 badges on his 350. His HOA would not allow 1 ton trucks. More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[triplethreat]

The difference can be obvious,such as overload springs, or invisible as in a different bearing in the transmission. IMO it just isn't worth the trouble trying to make a 250 into a 350 etc. The price difference between the trucks isn't that much.
I know a guy who did put 250 badges on his 350. His HOA would not allow 1 ton trucks. More than one way to skin a cat.

That ^^^^ is pure genius! LOL!

 

[Mannyjt]

The difference can be obvious,such as overload springs, or invisible as in a different bearing in the transmission. IMO it just isn't worth the trouble trying to make a 250 into a 350 etc. The price difference between the trucks isn't that much.
I know a guy who did put 250 badges on his 350. His HOA would not allow 1 ton trucks. More than one way to skin a cat.

That's about how my thinking goes. All it takes is a simple oversight to have a very expensive oops.

Right now the debate hinges on do I pour 3-5k into the 3/4 to bag it and do some other goodies or just take it on the chin and upgrade assuming we'll probably upsize the camper in a year or two. Yeah there's stuff thats different on a '24 I'd love to have but none of it's necessary for pulling my 280rs Reflection 150 behind me.

And lmao, I like the way that guy thinks. I've heard of HOAs banning commercial vehicles but not 1 tons, I'd probably do similar haha.

 

[triplethreat]

That's about how my thinking goes. All it takes is a simple oversight to have a very expensive oops.

Right now the debate hinges on do I pour 3-5k into the 3/4 to bag it and do some other goodies or just take it on the chin and upgrade assuming we'll probably upsize the camper in a year or two. Yeah there's stuff thats different on a '24 I'd love to have but none of it's necessary for pulling my 280rs Reflection 150 behind me.

And lmao, I like the way that guy thinks. I've heard of HOAs banning commercial vehicles but not 1 tons, I'd probably do similar haha.

Or, you could just put a sign on the truck that reads......I identify as a 1/2T truck! LOL!

 

[Boogiejack75]

The axle tube diameter is larger with the bigger pumpkin. Bottom line, the GVWR and GAWRs are identical between SO and HO, but you lose 170lbs payload with the HO. No clue why if everything is the same. I've never seen any Stellantis confirmation on specific differences. Personally, I suspect the 2500 and 3500 frames are identical except for the coil vs. leaf but I've never seen any corroboration from Stellantis. Also note that the GVWRs for 2500s in Canada are 9900 rather than their 10000 US counterparts but there are no differences in the 3500 noted (at least for 2020).

9900 lbs = 4500 kg, the break point in Canada for a tax increase. Same truck, different (artificial) GVWR. Just like F450 Fords. They are rated 14000 GVWR. Their actual GVWR is much higher, but listed lower to keep them out of commercial territory.

 

[ajg617]

9900 lbs = 4500 kg, the break point in Canada for a tax increase. Same truck, different (artificial) GVWR. Just like F450 Fords. They are rated 14000 GVWR. Their actual GVWR is much higher, but listed lower to keep them out of commercial territory.

So it's all about rounding to even numbers in metric or imperial systems.

 

[Casa_Woody]

Or, you could just put a sign on the truck that reads......I identify as a 1/2T truck! LOL!

I can't stop laughing

 

[lorend]

Just to maybe give a little validity to what you are saying about the GAWR and tire ratings. Had a situation with the company I used to work for where a driver of an 80,000 lb rated semi got an overweight ticket for hauling a 15,000 lb forklift. All the weight was on one axle and that put him over on that axle. Does it get confusing after that?

 

[Mannyjt]

So I got talking to a guy with a 3500 yesterday..

Here's the most shocking bit:
The GVWR on his '22 3500 was only 200 pounds more than mine!
His curb weight is about 900 lower. (Gasser, long bed, no pro tailgate, no options) so he does have 1100 payload more but I found this utterly perpexling.

Other comparison points, his 3500 had:
Same shocks
Same tires
Recommended tire pressure was 10psi higher on his
Same spring pack + 2 helpers
Lower max trailer weight
Lower max pin weight
800lb higher rear axle rating

I have a tow package on my Denali, but I wouldn't reckon it'd be that close to a 3500 at all.

I think I'm more confused about whats going on here between the two models than ever lol.

*Edit* I figured out through GMCs order builder that it depends on what trim you have.

3500 Decals (White Paint):


2500 Decals (Black Paint):

 

[Mannyjt]

So I'm still digging on this one.

I pulled a favor and the rear dif, axle, tires and frame are all the same part number between the 2500 and 3500. The only thing I can't find a straight answer on yet is the rating on my rims, but the same rims are on the 3500 soo...

I've also been shopping '23-'24 3500s. Theres a good amount of '23s on the lot with decent incentives but I'd miss out on the interior redesign and updated L5P Duramax. I missed out on both when I bought my '22 because Rona kept delaying the updates.

I'm leaning towards the '23 for a couple reasons. No 6 month build time and the '24 broke the Denali in to two trims. The couple Denali features I actually want are in the more expensive trim which is still in my budget if not annoying...BUT the color I want isn't offered on the Denali Ultimate, only literally every other lower trim. What the heck GM?!

I've stupidly been asking some dually drivers I know if dailying one is all that bad and have received a resounding no not at all. Given that I'm finding theres almost no advantage to going to a SRW 3500 over my 2500 I'm painting myself into a 6 tire shaped corner here lol.

I'm down to either saying screw the sticker on my 2500 and bagging it, upgrading shocks and getting the two helper springs (which bolt right to my frame) and calling it a day or getting silly with a dually.

I found a truck configured the exact same as mine except a '23 3500 vs my '22 2500 and compared capacities. Everything was in favor of the 3500, but it's genuinely not a lot.

At the same token I've seen many a Solitude or equivalent Alliance being pulled with a SRW 3500 that didn't look to be anywhere near bottoming out so I think I'm just as confused as when I started. All the GM people I've talked to have been perplexed too. I have not yet found the appropriately knowledgeable person and I'm starting to think it's all a farce lol. As best I can tell its the literal exact same truck with two helper springs bolted on each side to holes that already exist in my frame.

Differences:
GVWR: 800lbs
GCWR: 2200lbs
RAWR: 650lbs
Curb: 50lbs
Cargo: 750lbs
Max Pin: 501

Photo:
3500 capacities

 

[JKellerJr]

So I'm still digging on this one.

I pulled a favor and the rear dif, axle, tires and frame are all the same part number between the 2500 and 3500. The only thing I can't find a straight answer on yet is the rating on my rims, but the same rims are on the 3500 soo...

You have a good handle on this so I'm not going to jump in here. I'll just say I've pulled a 377 and our current 375 with a 3500 SRW with some upgrades. Never felt unsafe or nervous including pulling in high winds. Everyone has there threshold so you need to find yours. I did go dually with the new truck. The extra tire(s) in back are nice and I want to add an aux fuel tank.

I've also been shopping '23-'24 3500s. Theres a good amount of '23s on the lot with decent incentives but I'd miss out on the interior redesign and updated L5P Duramax. I missed out on both when I bought my '22 because Rona kept delaying the updates.

I'm leaning towards the '23 for a couple reasons.

I wouldn't even consider the '23. The '24 interior is really nice, Its uses GM's latest global B electronic architecture, allows for OTA software updates, the new '24 trailer camera system now fully works with 5th wheels, etc. To me, spending that kind of money I want the latest tech, not the older generation. Others may like the '23 better. YMMV

No 6 month build time

Mine was 3 months order to delivery. I've heard some are down too 2 months now. My Dad bought an Ultimate off the lot after he went with me to pick up mine. Make sure you find a dealer with allocation. Long build times are mostly allocation issues IMO.

and the '24 broke the Denali in to two trims. The couple Denali features I actually want are in the more expensive trim which is still in my budget if not annoying...BUT the color I want isn't offered on the Denali Ultimate, only literally every other lower trim. What the heck GM?!

Cant argue with this. Never understand why when we spend more money we get LESS choice

But the Ultimate interior is awesome

I've stupidly been asking some dually drivers I know if dailying one is all that bad and have received a resounding no not at all. Given that I'm finding theres almost no advantage to going to a SRW 3500 over my 2500 I'm painting myself into a 6 tire shaped corner here lol

Daily driving, I really don't notice. Daily parking is a different story. You be parking farther out and backing in to spots more often.

 

[Mannyjt]

You have a good handle on this so I'm not going to jump in here. I'll just say I've pulled a 377 and our current 375 with a 3500 SRW with some upgrades. Never felt unsafe or nervous including pulling in high winds. Everyone has there threshold so you need to find yours. I did go dually with the new truck. The extra tire(s) in back are nice and I want to add an aux fuel tank.



I wouldn't even consider the '23. The '24 interior is really nice, Its uses GM's latest global B electronic architecture, allows for OTA software updates, the new '24 trailer camera system now fully works with 5th wheels, etc. To me, spending that kind of money I want the latest tech, not the older generation. Others may like the '23 better. YMMV



Mine was 3 months order to delivery. I've heard some are down too 2 months now. My Dad bought an Ultimate off the lot after he went with me to pick up mine. Make sure you find a dealer with allocation. Long build times are mostly allocation issues IMO.



Cant argue with this. Never understand why when we spend more money we get LESS choice

But the Ultimate interior is awesome



Daily driving, I really don't notice. Daily parking is a different story. You be parking farther out and backing in to spots more often.

Appreciate all the feedback! I walked in to a dealership and ordered a '24 3500 SRW this morning. Was only planning on kicking tires and crawling under that identical 3500 to compare but they had a provision available and I jumped on it.

Personally was not a fan of the Ultimate interior, both visually and the fact that I work in machine shops day in day out and blacks easier to hide any grime. I also was really annoyed about the color thing, my current TV was purchased during the shortage and also wasn't the color I wanted. Given both of those I went with a straight Denali. Shame, the Volcanic Red Tintcoat and that Black Vader Chrome grill would have been amazing together.

I may still pull the plug on the order and go dually but I ran the numbers on all of the trailers we're considering and the SRW will be pushing it with an aux tank but within the lines. Deposits fully refundable and they said they'd have it sold before my refund even cleared so no hard feelings if I pull out.

They're estimating 2-3 months for mine, we'll have to see how it actually goes. My current truck was 14 months between order and delivery but I snapped it up when the original orderee couldn't get their financing together.

Still chewing on that SRW/DRW thing but at least now there's a 1 ton with my name on it being cooked.

 

[Mannyjt]

You have a good handle on this so I'm not going to jump in here. I'll just say I've pulled a 377 and our current 375 with a 3500 SRW with some upgrades. Never felt unsafe or nervous including pulling in high winds.

I looked those two up, fairly heavy trailers. What did you notice most? What eventually pushed you to a DRW? So far at 4-500 under cap on my current rig I've been plenty comfy just don't care for the bounce. I'm wondering how that handled being closer to the limit.

I'll probably bag whatever TV I wind up with just for the hell of it so that'll help some.

 

[GMan1970]

Hey Manny....I'm close to your same loadout except I have a 2022 280RS and a 2023 Ram 2500 CCSB with the Cummins.

I had a 2021 Ram with a 6.4 and traded because it just sucked in the mountains...literally and figuratively!

I'm looking into hitching options now. Do you use the Turning Point or is it locked? Do you have a SB or LB? What hitch do you use and is it what you would want if you started from scratch? I just know it's going to be much better than my old set up but looking for any real world exp.

Thanks

 

[Mark_270BN]

Hey Manny....I'm close to your same loadout except I have a 2022 280RS and a 2023 Ram 2500 CCSB with the Cummins.

I had a 2021 Ram with a 6.4 and traded because it just sucked in the mountains...literally and figuratively!

I'm looking into hitching options now. Do you use the Turning Point or is it locked? Do you have a SB or LB? What hitch do you use and is it what you would want if you started from scratch? I just know it's going to be much better than my old set up but looking for any real world exp.

Thanks

How are you payload numbers looking with that truck and trailer? I have a 2500 Cummins CCSB and pull the 270BN and I'm still under the GVWR of 10k, but not by much. But of course after all the discussion on here and regulations not withstanding, I'm way under the GAWR and GCWR for the truck/trailer combo and find it to be perfectly safe.

 

[Rosti57]

I have the same TV as you and am looking at purchasing the 270bn. You mention that you are under the GVWR for your RAM 2500 Cummins. Can you tell me what the loaded pin weight was for your 270bn? This will determine if I will also be able to meet to he GVWR with my planned passenger/cargo setup for the truck.

 

[Mark_270BN]

I have the same TV as you and am looking at purchasing the 270bn. You mention that you are under the GVWR for your RAM 2500 Cummins. Can you tell me what the loaded pin weight was for your 270bn? This will determine if I will also be able to meet to he GVWR with my planned passenger/cargo setup for the truck.

2023 270BN loaded scaled pin weight: 1280 lbs.

 

[Rosti57]

Thank you. This is very helpful. I think if I can keep mine under 1500lbs, I will be ok. Other than the propane, battery and flow thru storage, most of the remaining storage appears to fall on the rear axle of the trailer ( I.e. refrigerator, pantry cupboards.

 

[Mark_270BN]

Thank you. This is very helpful. I think if I can keep mine under 1500lbs, I will be ok. Other than the propane, battery and flow thru storage, most of the remaining storage appears to fall on the rear axle of the trailer ( I.e. refrigerator, pantry cupboards.

Yes, and good luck getting the pin weight to 1500lbs...you'd have to throw everything in the bedroom.

I just did a 10 day 2,000 mile 3 National Park trip with it and that's what it scaled at after we loaded it all down (1280lbs pin).