Looking for WD Hitch Clarification

[deeuubee]

I picked up my 25G trailer from the dealer this weekend.
I was very happy with the whole process, but on the 5 hour drive home, I kept questioning myself about whether or not the WD Hitch setup is adequate.

I was supposed to get a Class V 2 1/2" shank, but they didn't have one that worked for my truck, so they used a 2" shank and spacer.
The GTW was fine for that 14,000 lbs. TW 1400 lbs. That's one of the things that worried me. The build sheet says TW 1290.
Add to that 125 lbs. for the battery and propane, and I'm at 1415 lbs. At that point, I'm over the limit, and the trailer isn't even loaded yet.
Adding 200 lbs. for clothes and tools in the front storage, and I'm at 1615 TW, well over the shank rating.
And, that's if I don't put payload in the pickup.

I don't know how much 90 gallons of water and full fridge affects TW because they are in the middle of the trailer.
I do know that when my M/C (650 lbs.) is loaded in the back the TW will go down.
How much, I'll see, but enough to get to a level safely below 1400 TW?
Secondly, I won't have it the M/C half the time, and I don't want to drive around with 650 lbs. of sand bags to balance things out.
Am I over thinking this or should I have them get me the class V shank they were originally supposed to?

The next thing that drove me batty on the 5 hour trip home in the rain was the weight distributing bars.
They are rated at 1200 lbs. They said that's the bars they use on that model. How they determined that I don't know.
Everything I read said it should be rated for the max TW weight you will have.
Even if I don't load it to max, the TW has to be around 15-1600 lbs.
When I spoke with the Tech from the manufacturer yesterday, he said I should be using 1600 lb. bars.
Again, am I over thinking this? Should I have them get me the heavier bars?

I know just enough to get myself in trouble here and without a true weight, I have to use the numbers on the spec sheet.
Because it's 5 hours back to the dealer, I ordered a TW scale, will load it up and go to the Truck stop to weight it before calling them back.
We discussed this before I left there, and I surrendered to their expertise, but 5 hours in the rain gave me too much time to think.
The ride home, it didn't bounce up and down too much, but this was my first heavy tow, and I really don't know what to expect.

My wife drives also, and since I can't look her in the eye and tell her I think it's safe, I won't use the trailer until I figure this out.

 

[NB Canada]

IMO I would only use a weigh-safe hitch if I were you

Especially if your cargo is going to change

Unfortunately toy haulers are built to haul so when they don’t they can be difficult
But like I said if it were me I would immediately order a weigh-safe wdh. You can adjust it on the fly depending on your cargo
Good luck


2021 Imagine 2400 BH
2018 GMC Sierra 4x4 crew

 

[Rancher350]

My 1 experience when talking to the RV dealer about WDH was.....The most expensive unit is the best. They gave me 1000# bars for a GVWR of 5500#. In my opinion they had no idea how those bars work and that a way over/under sized bar will not be as effective. They should have sized your WDH for GVWR and at least a proportional TW.

 

[deeuubee]

[MENTION=39358]Rancher350[/MENTION] - At 5500 GVWR, 10-15% TW = 550- 825 lbs. 1000 lb. bars have a range from 500 - 1000 lbs. I don't see that as unacceptable.

In my situation, I'm 100 lbs. over the max, and I haven't even loaded the trailer yet.

 

[Fsalmy]

[MENTION=39358]Rancher350[/MENTION] - At 5500 GVWR, 10-15% TW = 550- 825 lbs. 1000 lb. bars have a range from 500 - 1000 lbs. I don't see that as unacceptable.

In my situation, I'm 100 lbs. over the max, and I haven't even loaded the trailer yet.

I’ve got a 2019 BlueOx SwayPro 2000 with 2.5” shank and 2000 lb bars for sale. Depending on what your dealer does or doesn’t do for you and if you’re interested, I’ll send to you for just the shipping fee. (It’s heavy, so be forewarned.)

 

[Rancher350]

[MENTION=39358]Rancher350[/MENTION] - At 5500 GVWR, 10-15% TW = 550- 825 lbs. 1000 lb. bars have a range from 500 - 1000 lbs. I don't see that as unacceptable.

In my situation, I'm 100 lbs. over the max, and I haven't even loaded the trailer yet.

I was commenting toward your question and predicament. The dealer gave you a set up that wouldn't support the GVWR of your rig. Based on your comment back to me and its "typed" tone would indicate you should have known they fouled up, with the items they gave. Every rig is different and must be analyzed accordingly. Now for my experience. For my hitch bars come in sizes typically in 200# increments. I was given 1000# bars for a UVW or 3900 and GVWR of 5500. Starting tongue weight of 390 add 2 tanks and 1 battery. No storage up front, large storage all the way aft and with black and grey tanks behind the axels at 64 gallons and fresh at 60 gallons just forward of the axels. My tongue weight had no way of ever really crossing much beyond 550# especially since i rarely go far with full tanks. I contacted the manufacturer and they agreed and recommended 600# bars. The ride improved greatly!

 

[deeuubee]

[MENTION=39358]Rancher350[/MENTION] -My apologies if I came across sarcastic, it wasn't my intention.
Sometimes in an attempt to be brief, things don't come out like I intended.

I can see the point on your trailer. My brain thinks every trailer is a toyhauler with heavier tongue weights.
.
No doubt my situation is of my own doing.
Cancelling the trip I was going on right from the dealer, and then another 10 hour round trip back and forth to the dealer another day weakened my good judgement. I'm in no way blaming the dealer for this. They say they use that set up for that trailer all the time.
Maybe after I set up and weight this weekend, I'll feel the same way. Best case scenario, I'm wrong and apologize again.
Worst case, I'm right and have to get different equipment.

 

[Redapple63]

Deeuubee,

I have a Reflection 315RLTS with a 10995 GVWR and a 9400 empty weight. I use Equalizer 4pt wdh with 1600 pound bars and a class v 2 1/2 receiver.

My most recent weigh came in at 10770 lbs with TW of about 1520.

I agree with your assessment.

Good Luck!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Rancher350]

No worries, text has no soul. I still believe they short changed you by not supplying a wdh that didn't meet gvwr. I am curious in change of tw with and without the machine loaded. Yes forums try to expunge advice but unless person knows exactly what's needed they will get all sorts of advice. Luckily I am a practicle nerd of an engineer. Good luck.

 

[az_fez_jet]

Welcome to the fabulous world of becoming a load master to safely run a toy hauler both in empty and loaded configurations, its a fine art.

I have been hauling this rig setup for 10 years, and it was mind blowing to see the shifting TW when empty, empty plus water, RZR loaded, gas tanks full vs empty, etc.... stunning to to see 600lbs TW shifting around depending on load configuration. I am further hindered by the fact I can not a find Class V receiver manufactured for my application and have to balance my TW to 1200lbs.

By all means yes....... Get those idiots to get you a 2.5in shank or give you your money back and get one on your own. As for the bars once you become accustom to loading weight to rear of unit the 1400lb bars will likely be fine, but if you can get 1600lb bars swapped from the dealer then have them make it happen. The axle position on the trailer you mention is positioned to where when your gas tank is filled up and you MC is loaded you should see a substantial amount of weight come off the TW, a few hundred pounds.

To get my TW under control when pulling it empty I fill up the gas tanks and load a bunch of heavy weight items directly against my back ramp to include tool box, 3.5ton jack, 2kwatt portable genny, cases of drinks, camp chef, charcoal, etc... When hauling the RZR I load that stuff equally balanced along the side walls from the ramp forward, although I have no slides and full flat floor which leaves me room.

It will certainly take some playing around at the scales and a Sherline, but that piece of mind will have your nerves well settled when you know how your load pattern ultimately get you to the most comfortable tow.

 

[az_fez_jet]

One other point of paramount importance that I left out was being familiar with your holding tanks layout. If your fresh tank is up over the axles the odds are your grey and black tanks will be in front of the fresh towards the truck. Filling those grey and black tanks up with 100 gallons and emptying your fresh tank would have immense impact on TW. You can mod your sewer dump connection cap with one that has a fitting for a standard garden hose connection and leak your grey tank as you use the sink and shower, be sure to know that you operating legally in the area you are camping when employing this method.

 

[TerryH]

From our experience and what I've read of other's experiences, you don't have enough hitch. I have a 31G and the class 5 Weigh Safe (20k pull/2k tongue weight rated) has been amazing. There will be a sizeable swing in tongue weight depending on how the trailer is loaded and the adjust on the fly and phone app to guide you is the main advantage to the WS hitch.

 

[Rancher350]

[MENTION=39358]Rancher350[/MENTION] -My apologies if I came across sarcastic, it wasn't my intention.
Sometimes in an attempt to be brief, things don't come out like I intended.

I can see the point on your trailer. My brain thinks every trailer is a toyhauler with heavier tongue weights.
.
No doubt my situation is of my own doing.
Cancelling the trip I was going on right from the dealer, and then another 10 hour round trip back and forth to the dealer another day weakened my good judgement. I'm in no way blaming the dealer for this. They say they use that set up for that trailer all the time.
Maybe after I set up and weight this weekend, I'll feel the same way. Best case scenario, I'm wrong and apologize again.
Worst case, I'm right and have to get different equipment.

No worries and good luck.

 

[TSeck954]

I'd say have a serious conversation with the dealer GM. There is a significant liability to them to get this wrong. When I bought my rig the very first question out of their mouth was "what are you pulling it with?". Hitch setup is a major part of that equation. If it makes you uncomfortable, I'd say it needs another look.

I'm no engineer but there are enough experienced people on this board that can validate your analysis. Personally, I'd rather overspec and have some wiggle room than not.

A spacer is BS flat out. I'd say get a B&W. Not cheap but serious overspec.

 

[deeuubee]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement. Hopefully I can work something out with them.

I bought a Sherline TW scale. On a quick check, loaded up with water and no M/C, I have 1600 lbs. on the tongue.
Throw in the M/C, and I can get it down to 1400 lbs. Either way, I'm over the 12K bar limit.
The 5 hour drive from the dealer was uneventful, but the steering did feel a little light.
When I go to the scales this week, I'll adjust it to balance the weight best I can and see. It's nice living close to the scales.
For sure I need the 2.5" shank.
The one I have has a TW limit of 1400lbs., and that's the least I'll have. Plus it's clanky over the bumps with that adapter.
Last thing I need is an issue when I'm napping and the wife is towing.
If I break an overloaded bar, I'll definitely crap myself.
I'm going to get the proper hitch and 1700 lb. bars. Any relief from the dealer will be a bonus.

 

[az_fez_jet]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement. Hopefully I can work something out with them.

I bought a Sherline TW scale. On a quick check, loaded up with water and no M/C, I have 1600 lbs. on the tongue.
Throw in the M/C, and I can get it down to 1400 lbs. Either way, I'm over the 12K bar limit.
The 5 hour drive from the dealer was uneventful, but the steering did feel a little light.
When I go to the scales this week, I'll adjust it to balance the weight best I can and see. It's nice living close to the scales.
For sure I need the 2.5" shank.
The one I have has a TW limit of 1400lbs., and that's the least I'll have. Plus it's clanky over the bumps with that adapter.
Last thing I need is an issue when I'm napping and the wife is towing.
If I break an overloaded bar, I'll definitely crap myself.
I'm going to get the proper hitch and 1700 lb. bars. Any relief from the dealer will be a bonus.

I would also familiarize yourself with the setup of the hitch and double check the dealers work on height and pitch. Had a buddy pull a new rig off the dealer lot where when we brought it to my house and set it up right it sent 400lbs combined back to the trailer and up to the steers on a cat scale

 

[toolman.dustin]

How to adjust tongue weight

I wrote this up a few years ago, it might help you become more aware.
You can use your bathroom scales to weigh your tonged weight with the video below. I built it and discovered it was very repeatable.

////////

I was curious about that “10% rule”. You know the one that says whatever you load in your coach you can presume 10% of the weight will be added to the tongue weight. So, I though I’d test that out. After this exercise I'm not so sure about that rule.

Homemade tongue weight scale:
I watched this video awhile back and decided to build this apparatus to measure “Trailer Tongue Weight” using a bathroom scale. It took about 20 minutes to build. I calibrated it by measuring several items of known weight (including my own body weight) and it worked perfectly; surprisingly accurate and very repeatable.
Here's a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoLA44lcgU

So, I verified the coach was level and the home made scale was level (it makes a difference if it’s not level) and measured the coach tongue weight at 1145 lbs. I then made a number of weight changes and measured the tongue weight at each step. Below are the steps I took and below that is an image of the coach with the approximate location of each step annotated. Below that is a side view of the coach relatively lined up with the above image to show the location of the axles. Below that, image 3, is my bathroom scale tongue weight setup.

In step #2 I used my own body weight and had my wife take a weight reading. In step #3 I added a 30 gallon trash can to the rear luggage rack and added 25 gallons of water to it.

The weight indicated following each numbered step below is the weight after the specific step was completed. example: step #2, 1250 lbs is the weight after the 229 lbs was added.


#1. 1145 lbs Starting Tongue Weight

#2. 1250 lbs Added 229 lbs at diagram position #2 (46% of that weight xfred to tongue)
Removed 229 lbs at #2 back to 1145 lbs tongue weight.

#3. 1020 lbs Added 200 lbs water on the rear luggage rack. (63% of the 200 lbs reduced tongue wt.)
Removed the 200 lbs water from the rear luggage rack; back to 1145 lbs.

#4. 1022 lbs Removed a bunch of tools (168 lbs?) from two front storage compartments.
(I didn’t actually weight them, however, see #8 below.
Assuming 168 lbs was removed, 73% of the 168 lbs reduced tongue wt.)
New tongue weight is 1022 lbs.

#5. 985 lbs – filled rear gray tank with 30 gal. water (240 lbs) (15% of 240 lbs reduced tongue wt.)
Dumped rear gray tank; back to 1022 lbs.

#6. 1055 lbs – filled front gray tank 30 gal. water (240 lbs) (15% of 240 lbs added to tongue wt.)
Dumped front gray tank; back to 1022 lbs.

(interruption to science experiment)

#7. 1045 lbs – Wife cleaned the toilet and dumped unknown amount of water in the black tank so the
new starting weight is 1045 lbs.

#8. 939 lbs – moved all the tools from step #4 to the rear luggage rack. Though the actual weight was
unknown I can assume a 63% reduction in tongue weight as in step 3, therefore the tools
must have weighed 168 lbs. That seems about right to me, it was several boxes of tools
and took 3-4 trips.

Thought it was an interesting exercise and decided to share the results.

 

[toolman.dustin]

How much weight can you move to the rear?

I should add this caution: If you move too much weight to the rear of your trailer you will introduce very dangerous un-stability. In a later experiment I added 640 lbs of concrete bags to the "luggage rack" on the rear of the trailer and did some test drives. The tongue weight was way too low with 640 lbs on the rear and the truck/trailer became very unsteady when I jerked the steering wheel just a little. I moved concrete bags from rear to the front storage until things settled down. I discovered the most weight I can shift from front to rear is about 400 lbs. Then I added this Tuscon Sway Control computer as added protection. I don't want the trailer to ever try and pass my truck. I drove several thousand miles with this setup and never had a problem. With some effort you can characterize your own setup and be safe at the same time.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078P46N8M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[az_fez_jet]

I wrote this up a few years ago, it might help you become more aware.
You can use your bathroom scales to weigh your tonged weight with the video below. I built it and discovered it was very repeatable.

////////

I was curious about that &#8 220;10% rule&#8 221;. You know the one that says whatever you load in your coach you can presume 10% of the weight will be added to the tongue weight. So, I though I&#8 217;d test that out. After this exercise I'm not so sure about that rule.

Homemade tongue weight scale:
I watched this video awhile back and decided to build this apparatus to measure &#8 220;Trailer Tongue Weight&#8 221; using a bathroom scale. It took about 20 minutes to build. I calibrated it by measuring several items of known weight (including my own body weight) and it worked perfectly; surprisingly accurate and very repeatable.
Here's a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMoLA44lcgU

So, I verified the coach was level and the home made scale was level (it makes a difference if it&#8 217;s not level) and measured the coach tongue weight at 1145 lbs. I then made a number of weight changes and measured the tongue weight at each step. Below are the steps I took and below that is an image of the coach with the approximate location of each step annotated. Below that is a side view of the coach relatively lined up with the above image to show the location of the axles. Below that, image 3, is my bathroom scale tongue weight setup.

In step #2 I used my own body weight and had my wife take a weight reading. In step #3 I added a 30 gallon trash can to the rear luggage rack and added 25 gallons of water to it.

The weight indicated following each numbered step below is the weight after the specific step was completed. example: step #2 , 1250 lbs is the weight after the 229 lbs was added.


#1 . 1145 lbs Starting Tongue Weight

#2 . 1250 lbs Added 229 lbs at diagram position #2 (46% of that weight xfred to tongue)
Removed 229 lbs at #2 back to 1145 lbs tongue weight.

#3 . 1020 lbs Added 200 lbs water on the rear luggage rack. (63% of the 200 lbs reduced tongue wt.)
Removed the 200 lbs water from the rear luggage rack; back to 1145 lbs.

#4 . 1022 lbs Removed a bunch of tools (168 lbs?) from two front storage compartments.
(I didn&#8 217;t actually weight them, however, see #8 below.
Assuming 168 lbs was removed, 73% of the 168 lbs reduced tongue wt.)
New tongue weight is 1022 lbs.

#5 . 985 lbs &#8 211; filled rear gray tank with 30 gal. water (240 lbs) (15% of 240 lbs reduced tongue wt.)
Dumped rear gray tank; back to 1022 lbs.

#6 . 1055 lbs &#8 211; filled front gray tank 30 gal. water (240 lbs) (15% of 240 lbs added to tongue wt.)
Dumped front gray tank; back to 1022 lbs.

(interruption to science experiment)

#7 . 1045 lbs &#8 211; Wife cleaned the toilet and dumped unknown amount of water in the black tank so the
new starting weight is 1045 lbs.

#8 . 939 lbs &#8 211; moved all the tools from step #4 to the rear luggage rack. Though the actual weight was
unknown I can assume a 63% reduction in tongue weight as in step 3, therefore the tools
must have weighed 168 lbs. That seems about right to me, it was several boxes of tools
and took 3-4 trips.

Thought it was an interesting exercise and decided to share the results.

Not only does it take copious amounts of time to test as you did but then takes alot of additional effort to document your notes and share them...

Great work and write up...

 

[deeuubee]

Just an update. Dealer is working with me to get the correct setup.
The more I look into this, the further into the weeds it goes.

So the update:
GD agrees that it's not the right set-up and to get the correct one.
They do recommend the straight-line WDH for Momentum's, but I think that's based on old info about Resse Hitches.
Resse says 1500 lb bars are the heaviest for the new Strait-line.
Resse no longer makes a complete Strait-Line WDH for 2.5" receivers, only Class V 2" (1500 lb TW)
The most import fact Resse says is: "NOTE: Do not exceed tow vehicle, hitch or equipment rating"

So, I'm hoping the dealer will find a way to solve my problem.
I was hoping to get a WDH system that would work for the rare case when I am maxed out at 11,500 lbs. (15%TW = 1725), but
The max bars they make for the Strait-Line WDH are 1500 lbs. In which case, it has to be another brand hitch.

As [MENTION=39230]az_fez_jet[/MENTION] says, becoming a "load master" is in my future