Problems with LiTime batteries

dryfly

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I have 3 new group 31 100ah LiTime batteries on my bench right now and I'm testing the capacity of each. There seems to be a problem with 2 of them. Using both a LiTime 10a charger and a third party 10a charger, the batteries will only charge to around 13.0v before the charger indicates full and cuts off. After charging they settle to a resting 12.9v. On discharge these 2 batteries supply about 82 amp hours before cut off.

I've read on another forum where this has been experienced with LiTime batteries.

Any suggestions or experiences of this type??
 
And with the third battery the same charging setup gets the battery up to 14.6V? Just confirming that it isn't the charger(s) rather than the batteries. Sounds like LiTime customer service is the next step.
 
As coglesby might be hinting, the accuracy of voltage device can make a large difference. Using LiTime figures 13.0V and 13.33V is 25% SOC and 100%SOC.

At 12.9V, after settling three hours (LiTime recommendation per manual page 06), should not produce 82Ah as you might be less than 25% SOC. For 75% SOC expected voltage is 13.3 to 13.33 (again page 6).
 
And with the third battery the same charging setup gets the battery up to 14.6V? Just confirming that it isn't the charger(s) rather than the batteries. Sounds like LiTime customer service is the next step.
I don't feel it's the chargers(s) as I appear to get the same results using either one.
 
As coglesby might be hinting, the accuracy of voltage device can make a large difference. Using LiTime figures 13.0V and 13.33V is 25% SOC and 100%SOC.

At 12.9V, after settling three hours (LiTime recommendation per manual page 06), should not produce 82Ah as you might be less than 25% SOC. For 75% SOC expected voltage is 13.3 to 13.33 (again page 6).
My neighbor has a couple of Fluke meters and I got the same reading on those, so I'm pretty sure I'm accurate on measurements.

I agree with you completely on what page 6 of the manual is saying, and I was very surprised to get that battery capacity with the 12.9v reading. What's weird is that LiTime's SOC to voltage specs seem different that most of the LiFEPO4 voltage charts. Also, on page 6 (#2 at bottom of page) they state that the real voltage is 0.5 to 0.7v higher than the measured voltage. If I read that correctly my 12.9v may actually be much higher, and is why I got the 82ah results. Very confusing.
 
My neighbor has a couple of Fluke meters and I got the same reading on those, so I'm pretty sure I'm accurate on measurements.

I agree with you completely on what page 6 of the manual is saying, and I was very surprised to get that battery capacity with the 12.9v reading. What's weird is that LiTime's SOC to voltage specs seem different that most of the LiFEPO4 voltage charts. Also, on page 6 (#2 at bottom of page) they state that the real voltage is 0.5 to 0.7v higher than the measured voltage. If I read that correctly my 12.9v may actually be much higher, and is why I got the 82ah results. Very confusing.
Good points. I need a neighbor with a Fluke meter.

How long after disconnecting charger was voltage checked? I do not know how much difference voltage would be at 30 minutes vs 3 hours, but as you know less time should produce higher voltages.

Yes, why are LiTime numbers different? I have not worked with mine enough to get to the bottom of this. I am curious what my fully charged voltage is after 3 hours. I have not measured delivered Ah with shunt but only checked to 50% SOC per BMS Bluetooth (not accurate). I am seeing 13.2V with 49 and 52% SOC on two 100Ah BT Group 24. Shunt is not near but I can fully charge and discharge to 50% easily. Added: my discharge rate was in ballpark to match 50% SOC.

#2 at bottom of page also just brings up more questions, so when they are saying "After this battery is protected from overcharge"...Page 04 states "Over Voltage Disconnect 15V". So have batteries hit 15V and BMS went into protection mode...I had this question earlier today.

Added: Do you know if you ever saw higher voltages like 14.4 on the (added:)) questionable batteries, while charging (rewording what Riverbug said)?
 
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Getting answers to questions like this from LiTime is often difficult or impossible. Wording is key to having any hope...

Added:
You may get responses like; we inspect every battery before shipping...so basically this issue can't happen.

Photos or videos can be beneficial, so it is clear to LiTime tech support or service that there is no misunderstanding on your part or theirs.

It is common to have to exchange many emails and each interaction takes at least overnight, before either giving up or getting resolution that is close enough. More difficult questions can take a week, if you ever hear back from them.

You will not get the same support, information, quick resolution, phone support or hand holding that a majority of owners need, and that Battle Born provides.
 
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Good points. I need a neighbor with a Fluke meter.

How long after disconnecting charger was voltage checked? I do not know how much difference voltage would be at 30 minutes vs 3 hours, but as you know less time should produce higher voltages.

Yes, why are LiTime numbers different? I have not worked with mine enough to get to the bottom of this. I am curious what my fully charged voltage is after 3 hours. I have not measured delivered Ah with shunt but only checked to 50% SOC per BMS Bluetooth (not accurate). I am seeing 13.2V with 49 and 52% SOC on two 100Ah BT Group 24. Shunt is not near but I can fully charge and discharge to 50% easily. Added: my discharge rate was in ballpark to match 50% SOC.

#2 at bottom of page also just brings up more questions, so when they are saying "After this battery is protected from overcharge"...Page 04 states "Over Voltage Disconnect 15V". So have batteries hit 15V and BMS went into protection mode...I had this question earlier today.

Added: Do you know if you ever saw higher voltages like 14.4 on the (added:)) questionable batteries, while charging (rewording what Riverbug said)?

Voltage was checked at anywhere from 1 to 12 hours after charging completed. I just checked one this morning that was charged last night. The charger cut off at a battery voltage of 13.4v. This morning it is measuring 13.0v.

So if you add the "phantom" voltage it could have charged to 14.1v. I don't understand what they are saying really.

I've got another week in the 30 day return policy so opening a return claim may get some action. But, communication may be difficult. Needless to say I'm kinda disappointed In the LiTime's at this point.
 
Start the interaction early, as they may say that you are beyond claim period even though process was started within period. With 30-day period, you may be using Amazon. With an intermediary, things get further delayed vs directly with LiTime, but I do not know if Amazon provides added safety in warranty resolution or harm with foreign manufactures.

On more expensive items from USA manufactures, I often try to go directly to manufacture but pay with PayPal. Multiple times I see that original seller through Amazon expects Amazon to replace or warranty item and sometimes they won't. PayPal really provides little purchase safety, other than seller cannot see your charge card number.

I added notes in message #10 that you may not have seen.
 
I am still confused about all the voltage readings you are getting. Can you confirm you are using a lithium compatible charger? If so, do you see voltage at the top of the charge cycle in the 14.4 - 14.6 range?

I ask because the voltages provided so far make it look like you are using a standard battery charger, which would only get to 80ish% of charge on the lithium battery. And that would explain your capacity issue.

Finally, how are you tracking the capacity? Do you have a shunt/monitor?
 
If I understand correctly, overcharge can be caused by holding the 14.4+/-.2V too long/after battery is fully charged or over voltage (added: this really is not overcharge but can cause overcharge)--somewhere above 14.6V. BMS is supposed to avoid this.

LiTime 10A charger has voltage specification of 14.6V, which makes sense. LiTime may ask you to check the voltage output of charger and (added: charger is not shutting off voltage too soon). I know, you have two different brand chargers that are doing same thing, but this likely will not satisfy LiTime.

Since the voltage cut off at say 13.4V, and you are seeing same behavior with both chargers, it is possible that two batteries have defective BMS. Added: Possibly BMS going into overcharge or over voltage protection at too low a setpoint. Also, possible that chargers are holding charge too long but I would assume that they should not shut off voltage unless way too long, when fully charged, and rely on battery BMS to shut off voltage to ensure full charge. I may check this on my batteries at some point and it will be easier with battery BT to see what is happening.

I expect that you know all the above but sometimes someone saying that they agree with you can be reassuring.

I find with LiTime I need to do a lot of guessing.
 
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I am still confused about all the voltage readings you are getting. Can you confirm you are using a lithium compatible charger? If so, do you see voltage at the top of the charge cycle in the 14.4 - 14.6 range?

I ask because the voltages provided so far make it look like you are using a standard battery charger, which would only get to 80ish% of charge on the lithium battery. And that would explain your capacity issue.

Finally, how are you tracking the capacity? Do you have a shunt/monitor?


Yes, I am using both a LiTime and 3rd party *lithium* charger. I am aware of the charging profile with the use of a LA charger.

I am not seeing a charge voltage in the >14v range. However on this last charge I did see the voltage go up to 13.7v. After resting it dropped to 13.0v.

I have a shunt but I am actually measuring a known load (in amps) and determining how long (time) it takes to deplete the battery.
 
Yes, I am using both a LiTime and 3rd party *lithium* charger. I am aware of the charging profile with the use of a LA charger.

I am not seeing a charge voltage in the >14v range. However on this last charge I did see the voltage go up to 13.7v. After resting it dropped to 13.0v.

I have a shunt but I am actually measuring a known load (in amps) and determining how long (time) it takes to deplete the battery.
Yeah, something isn't right. Okay, you say only 2 of the 3 batteries have a problem. What does the good battery look like? Does that one get up to 14.xV at the top of the charge? What is that one showing that makes you believe it is good vs the other two?

And if you have a shunt, why not use that to track the actual % usage and AH capacity to ensure accuracy? What voltage does your shunt show during charge cycle? Just trying to help figure out what is happening. It seems odd to me that 2 of the 3 batteries have a faulty BMS/settings that are the same. I assume the BMS' do not have bluetooth where you can log in and see the BMS settings?
 
Yeah, something isn't right. Okay, you say only 2 of the 3 batteries have a problem. What does the good battery look like? Does that one get up to 14.xV at the top of the charge? What is that one showing that makes you believe it is good vs the other two?

And if you have a shunt, why not use that to track the actual % usage and AH capacity to ensure accuracy? What voltage does your shunt show during charge cycle? Just trying to help figure out what is happening. It seems odd to me that 2 of the 3 batteries have a faulty BMS/settings that are the same. I assume the BMS' do not have bluetooth where you can log in and see the BMS settings?

OK, it's going to be difficult to give you all the info because I've only been at this project for 2 days and I'm working with 3 batteries, so bear with me. And, some of this is starting to be a moving target.

The good battery charged to 14.x volts and is now resting at 13.3v. Two of the batteries do have bluetooth but the app has not been downloaded yet. I was not aware that seeing the BMS settings were available, so that's an option.

The shunt has not been in the circuit. I don't see how it would yield better or more accurate results than actual measured voltage and time to discharge to measure actual battery capacity. Both are real world measurements and don't rely on the calibration of the shunt.

At this point, I'm going to revert to just working with one battery and do several charge/discharge cycles to get very specific results so I can deal with LiTime on that one.
 
Hold the bus, right here is your answer.

"Two of the batteries do have bluetooth but the app has not been downloaded yet."

Sounds like you have two different batterys. Just out of curiosity, do the two with bluetooth perform the same and the odd ball is the nonblue tooth battery? if that is the case then stop testing return the nonblue tooth battery and get three that are the same model number.

The different models will have different charging profiles and could even have different cell inside the battery from calb, to eve to pouch cells.
 
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The BT do not have any settings and show SOC, Power, Current, Voltage, Ah Capacity, Temperature, Cycle Times (number of cycles), serial number and Firmware Version.

Could updating firmware correct things? App likely updates both App and BMS firmware, quite easily. You also can turn on/off BT and batteries (Discharge Switch)! After turning off battery, battery needs a voltage jump to start.

App also shows Balance (stating if it is balancing or if it is balanced), Cells (Normal..., just responds that battery is functioning optimally), BMS Status (Normal, Your BMS is running smoothly). One of these could show something interesting in your case.

No way to know if BT and non-BT battery BMS are close enough to pair well with each other, assuming LiTime batteries.

As far as using measured current/known load, I agree it works fine, (added:) but current needs to be consistent and accurate. It also can take more effort). Shunt will possibly be a bit more accurate and does a great job with varying loads for SOC calc...My shunt is 20 miles away and it is cold out, while batteries are easy to work on in heated basement workbench.
 
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