Problems with LiTime batteries

I am now wondering if all three batterys are the same age?????? Why is one battery different?
OK let me add some info that I didn't feel was pertinent initially. All 3 batteries are group 31 Trolling Motor batteries. They were purchased 2 weeks ago at the same time. The 2 with BT belong to my neighbor but we are testing them at the same time. The BT batteries will not be used in the same system as the non-BT battery.

While I need to do more testing, it appears the BT batteries have the same issue as the non-BT battery. The app sounds like a good source of info, and obviously is needed. While the charging profile may be different, the end results appear to be the same. They are not providing a post-charge voltage that indicates 100% SOC by most common LiFePO4 charge tables (which are different than LiTime's).

I'm going to concentrate on the non-BT battery and do a couple of charge/discharge cycles and take some very good notes to pass along to LiTime if this turns out to be a warranty issue.

I will get the shunt into the circuit, but I still don't understand why the simple bench measurement of "load in amps X hours to discharge = amp/hour capacity" could not be an accurate measurement.
 
OK let me add some info that I didn't feel was pertinent initially. All 3 batteries are group 31 Trolling Motor batteries. They were purchased 2 weeks ago at the same time. The 2 with BT belong to my neighbor but we are testing them at the same time. The BT batteries will not be used in the same system as the non-BT battery.

While I need to do more testing, it appears the BT batteries have the same issue as the non-BT battery. The app sounds like a good source of info, and obviously is needed. While the charging profile may be different, the end results appear to be the same. They are not providing a post-charge voltage that indicates 100% SOC by most common LiFePO4 charge tables (which are different than LiTime's).

I'm going to concentrate on the non-BT battery and do a couple of charge/discharge cycles and take some very good notes to pass along to LiTime if this turns out to be a warranty issue.

I will get the shunt into the circuit, but I still don't understand why the simple bench measurement of "load in amps X hours to discharge = amp/hour capacity" could not be an accurate measurement.
Thanks for the update.

From what you are saying it is unlikely to be multiple battery problems. The likelihood of all three having an issue is near zero, at least as you have described things.

Load in amps x hours, with both amps and hours being quite accurate and amps being very steady state throughout test, is a reasonable approximation or better. Steady amps can be a challenge to obtain, though. Using another approach will rule out some questions.

Due to all the confusion, I highly recommend having your neighbor or you load the app, in additional to shunt, as this will take out many questions and is very easy. I mentioned SOC with the app is not as accurate as the shunt but after initial setup it may be quite good--but possibly not if batteries are cycled a lot and not reset at full or zero SOC, which is not what is needed now.

Doing all this is a pain in the butt but we are trying to reduce the aggravation as much as reasonable.

The way these discussions are going, there is a possibility that you maybe interacting with LiTime for many weeks or months with less than desirable results in the end. Of course, I cannot see the future and hope that I am wrong, and you have a great experience. If batteries are sent to them, with the possibility that you pay for shipping, at least if they do not find any problems, that maybe the cleanest approach. LiTime may not accept any of your notes, but photos and video, maybe.

Direct return to Amazon may work OK if they will accept them.
 
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Thanks for the update.

From what you are saying it is unlikely to be multiple battery problems. The likelihood of all three having an issue is near zero, at least as you have described things.

Load in amps x hours, with both amps and hours being quite accurate and amps being very steady state throughout test, is a reasonable approximation or better. Steady amps can be a challenge to obtain, though. Using another approach will rule out some questions.

Due to all the confusion, I highly recommend having your neighbor or you load the app, in additional to shunt, as this will take out many questions and is very easy. I mentioned SOC with the app is not as accurate as the shunt but after initial setup it may be quite good--but possibly not if batteries are cycled a lot and not reset at full or zero SOC, which is not what is needed now.

Doing all this is a pain in the butt but we are trying to reduce the aggravation as much as reasonable.

The way these discussions are going, there is a possibility that you maybe interacting with LiTime for many weeks or months with less than desirable results in the end. Of course, I cannot see the future and hope that I am wrong, and you have a great experience. If batteries are sent to them, with the possibility that you pay for shipping, at least if they do not find any problems, that maybe the cleanest approach. LiTime may not accept any of your notes, but photos and video, maybe.

Direct return to Amazon may work OK if they will accept them.

I'd bet this is going to end up with me against LiTime and I'm not expecting good results. But I got plenty of time and persistence. Been there done that before.

As I mentioned, before I deal with my neighbor's BT batteries, I'm going to concentrate on mine. I'm discharging right now so at full discharge I'll insert the shunt and calibrate.

I did not buy through Amazon, but direct from LiTime. This was because of better pricing and a free shunt/monitor. Probably will come back to bite me......
 
I'd bet this is going to end up with me against LiTime and I'm not expecting good results. But I got plenty of time and persistence. Been there done that before.

As I mentioned, before I deal with my neighbor's BT batteries, I'm going to concentrate on mine. I'm discharging right now so at full discharge I'll insert the shunt and calibrate.

I did not buy through Amazon, but direct from LiTime. This was because of better pricing and a free shunt/monitor. Probably will come back to bite me......
I also intentionally bought directly from LiTime for the reason that with Amazon being between you and the manufacture, too often, things go bad when you need support. I'm still glad I did because I am outside Amazon return and credit card protection short periods, which is most of life of battery.

There is a reasonable chance that you will not need to battle with Litime and a return, once things are cleared up. Why I say this: you are seeing same issue with your neighbor's batteries and LiTime batteries (at least new) seem pretty solid.

You are wise to focus on one battery and since it is more critical to get yours ironed out, doing it first. If you find you are not getting anywhere, you always have option to try the BT on your neighbor's. With the BT you can ignore battery voltage and current load, at least initially, until things are resolved, and just watch Ah and SOC on app, with no other equipment. Of course, with shunt you can do the same but with the additional equipment/variable.

Good luck!
 
I will get the shunt into the circuit, but I still don't understand why the simple bench measurement of "load in amps X hours to discharge = amp/hour capacity" could not be an accurate measurement.
You are correct that your method should be accurate. But since we can't see exactly what/how you are doing it, a shunt just helps to remove any questions about accuracy for those of us attempting to assist. Nothing personal. :)

Okay, so two of the batteries are from your neighbor. What has been his experience with them? Assuming he has a lithium compatible charger, was he able to see 14.2-14.4V during bulk charge? Did he see 14.6V at absorption?

Li Time recommends very typical voltages for lithium cells so it's no different than my SOK battery or my DIY's.

The Bluetooth app will likely allow you to see the settings Li Time has in the BMS, but probably not change them. That's a good thing for them as I imagine it would tough to honor warranty claims if anyone could mess around with the settings whether they know what they are doing or not.

If you can see the settings, you'll want to see if the OVP is set to 3.65V and the UPV is set to 2.50V - these are per cell voltages. That would be very typical for an off the shelf LFP battery. But importantly, if the UPV is set to 3.65V (14.6V for the battery) then you will know your charger setup is not getting to the top of the curve based on Li Time's BMS settings.

Does that make sense?
 
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You are correct that your method should be accurate. But since we can't see exactly what/how you are doing it, a shunt just helps to remove any questions about accuracy for those of us attempting to assist. Nothing personal. :)

Okay, so two of the batteries are from your neighbor. What has been his experience with them? Assuming he has a lithium compatible charger, was he able to see 14.2-14.4V during bulk charge? Did he see 14.6V at absorption?

Li Time recommends very typical voltages for lithium cells so it's no different than my SOK battery or my DIY's.

The Bluetooth app will likely allow you to see the settings Li Time has in the BMS, but probably not change them. That's a good thing for them as I imagine it would tough to honor warranty claims if anyone could mess around with the settings whether they know what they are doing or not.

If you can see the settings, you'll want to see if the OVP is set to 3.65V and the UPV is set to 2.50V - these are per cell voltages. That would be very typical for an off the shelf LFP battery. But importantly, if the UPV is set to 3.65V (14.6V for the battery) then you will know your charger setup is not getting to the top of the curve based on Li Time's BMS settings.

Does that make sense?
LiTime app has no settings--see post 19. I wish they did.

Added to this line only: On post #17 said one battery reached 14.x. I had to read through all this again...

Deleted this part.
 
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OP, sorry for all the questions...

  • What are you using for a load? It really should not matter but I have more in mind.

  • You mentioned using LiTime charger, what was the other LFP charger, brand/model? I am curious if it had a lithium setting that had to be set from lead acid or AGM? I do not see that LiTime charger is made for anything but LFP (per web).
I am just trying to rule out anything related to chargers. Added: I am aware that one battery charged fine so it should not be related to the specific charger used to charge that battery. The problem is things just do not make sense at this point.
 
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OP, sorry for all the questions...

  • What are you using for a load? It really should not matter but I have more in mind.

  • You mentioned using LiTime charger, what was the other LFP charger, brand/model? I am curious if it had a lithium setting that had to be set from lead acid or AGM? I do not see that LiTime charger is made for anything but LFP (per web).
I am just trying to rule out anything related to chargers. Added: I am aware that one battery charged fine so it should not be related to the specific charger used to charge that battery. The problem is things just do not make sense at this point.
No problem on the questions. I really appreciate all the interest.

The load is an inverter with 14.5 amps of lights hooked to it.

Charger set to lithium mode:


We got the BT app running on the 2 batteries that support it and everything looks good from the data in the app. One is at 90% capacity the other at 98%. All other parameters good.

I got the shunt set up on my battery and it's charging now. I look forward to a discharge cycle to check it's capacity. I just need some time now to do a couple of charge/discharge cycles to see where I am. This may have a happy ending.
 
That is really useful and positive information! You can see why I encouraged the use of BT on the neighbor's battery. I really like the BT but most people do not really need it, and it is another thing to go wrong, but I'm glad I have it.

If it is not too late and not to inconvenient, try to be around when battery is nearing the upper voltage while charging and transitions to the lower voltage. Knowing how high the voltage is and when voltage transitions to float voltage (may not be correct term) could help to troubleshoot, if you need to.

Ideally the shunt will answer your questions and give you confidence in the battery. I suspect you will not have to, but if a video can show LiTime charger, shunt and battery going from full charge point and transitioning to float, that might be all you need to give LiTime tech support to show a problem.

If you miss mentioned point for video you can discharge battery a little and charge again and might be easier anyway, so you do not have to watch as long.
 
dryfly
The charger from amazon lacks a lot of specifications and does not specify what voltage it charges at with LFP. It is capable of 16V and possibly more under some conditions. If it is set correctly to LiFePO4 AND it is functioning properly, AND it is designed to properly charge LFP it MAY be OK, but if any one of these conditions does not happen, you should see some of the odd voltages that you saw on the battery when battery BMS goes into Over Voltage Disconnect.
 
dryfly
What did you use to measure current for the Ah capacity calculations? (Before using BT and the shunt)
 
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dryfly
What did you use to measure current for the Ah capacity calculations? (Before using BT and the shunt)
Before I installed the shunt I used an amp clamp.

I'm still confused about the accuracy of the shunt meter in measuring AH capacity. Unlike other shunts that calibrate 100% SOC at full battery charge, on the LiTime shunt you calibrate it to zero SOC at full discharge, and then arbitrarily pick a voltage that you call 100% SOC. Seems very subjective to me.

The bottom line is still how many amps it will deliver over what period of time.
 
I think: on the victron smart shunt, it automatically synchronizes to 100% when it senses no more current going into the battery indicating it is fully charged.

Maybe the LiTime will recalibrate once it determines the battery is full?
 
Yes, Victron looks for current to drop off and if this tail current goes to a small number (.5-10%) shunt shows 100% SOC.

On the calibration at zero SOC, I have only thought about it a little bit and have no experience with it--only Victron method. Please correct me with my assumptions on the LiTime products.

It may be a bit of a trade-off versus resetting to 100% SOC at full charge. With LiTime method, when using batteries, you really know where zero SOC is at and know there is no more available Ah capacity and if attempting to stay above 0 or 20% it maybe more accurate. Also, once at zero and then charging you really know how much capacity was added and this is your true battery capacity and not a somewhat arbitrary number based on manufactures Ah claim.

As battery ages from time, cycles, wear from heat/cold, excessive charge/discharge rates including below 50F or at higher temperatures, going in low voltage protection mode too long, holding at 100% or 0% for longer periods of time... capacity is lost.

With zero at full charge, how is this capacity loss taken into account without occasionally measuring capacity throughout battery life? I did this on an annual basis with LA.

Added: Victron shunt does have "Zero current calibration: If the BMV reads a non-zero current even when there is no load and the battery is not being charged, this option can be used to calibrate the zero reading." I have no experience with this option and it would be interesting in hearing what others say when trying to find/set true zero with Victron shunt.

Let me know if LiTime does some kind of calibration at full charge.
 
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To set the true zero State of Charge (SOC) with a Victron shunt, follow these steps:

  1. Fully Discharge Your Battery: Ensure your battery is fully discharged.
  2. Access the VictronConnect App: Open the VictronConnect app on your smartphone.
  3. Connect to Your Shunt: Use Bluetooth or USB to connect your shunt to the app.
  4. Navigate to Battery Settings: Go to the battery settings menu in the app.
  5. Set Battery Capacity: Enter the correct battery capacity in Amp-hours (Ah).
  6. Set Discharge Floor: Set the minimum SOC level you want to maintain (e.g., 0%).
  7. Synchronize Battery: Use the "Battery start synchronized" setting to set the SOC to 0% when powered up.
 
Yes, I am using both a LiTime and 3rd party *lithium* charger. I am aware of the charging profile with the use of a LA charger.

I am not seeing a charge voltage in the >14v range. However on this last charge I did see the voltage go up to 13.7v. After resting it dropped to 13.0v.

I have a shunt but I am actually measuring a known load (in amps) and determining how long (time) it takes to deplete the battery.
Dryfly

Like Riverbug's post says; you should be getting 14 + volt going into the battery. The charger should be pushing that voltage the whole time, until it gets to full.
I think it's the charger that is not doing the job correctly.

KEN
 
To set the true zero State of Charge (SOC) with a Victron shunt, follow these steps:

  1. Fully Discharge Your Battery: Ensure your battery is fully discharged.
  2. Access the VictronConnect App: Open the VictronConnect app on your smartphone.
  3. Connect to Your Shunt: Use Bluetooth or USB to connect your shunt to the app.
  4. Navigate to Battery Settings: Go to the battery settings menu in the app.
  5. Set Battery Capacity: Enter the correct battery capacity in Amp-hours (Ah).
  6. Set Discharge Floor: Set the minimum SOC level you want to maintain (e.g., 0%).
  7. Synchronize Battery: Use the "Battery start synchronized" setting to set the SOC to 0% when powered up.
I’m not seeing “battery start synchronized”?
 

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Ken-- I do not know if measured voltage on charger connections at battery, when SOC is not high, would measure near 14 because the battery load on charger is so high, compared to the 10A charger output. No doubt it should be trying to put 14+ out, though.

Along those lines, I have been thinking that a way to test charger output voltage is to attach a small 12V load on the charger, without batteries connected, and measure the voltage. This assumes that the charger will produce current when the initial load voltage is zero, which I believe that many/most cannot. If charger can't act as a small power supply, there could be work arounds to get it to do so.

Basically, using it as a power supply. If 14+ is not seen, there could be a problem with charger. I was going to mention this before, but I did not want to make any of this more confusing than it already is now.
 
Dryfly

Like Riverbug's post says; you should be getting 14 + volt going into the battery. The charger should be pushing that voltage the whole time, until it gets to full.
I think it's the charger that is not doing the job correctly.

KEN
The converter or charger will only try to get to 14.4V but will only go as high as it can until it hits the max current output. In other words based on the max current of the converter or charger, it may or may not get to 14.4V. As the battery voltage increases due to charging the converter or charger will final reach 14.4 V but at that point the battery will be charged and it will drop down to 13..6V. The output of the converter will only reach 14.4V once the battery is consuming less current than the converter or charger can supply. With no load, the converter output should be at least 13.6V for a lithium converter or charger. See voltage graph from my converter for reference (tap the picture to see the entire charge cycle)
 

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