Reflection 150 Light Pin Weight

[bricknhank]

I have a 2023 Reflection 150 270bn and I have a problem with chucking. The OEM Vehicle Wt Information sheet specs that came with the trailer are 1148 pin wt and 7936 UVW which works out to be about 14.5%. I know that factory numbers can be a little off but I think that those numbers are close. My Cat Scale Loaded up ready to camp pin weight percentage is 14.9% (See attached Cat Scale worksheet). Everything that I read says that around 20% pin weight is the number to shoot for and I don’t know if I’ve read too many people complaining about 22%-25%. I keep as much of the heavy stuff as I can in the front storage compartment and basement. Nice thick solid wood leveling blocks for under the leveling jacks, solid rubber wheel chocks, toolbox, 50amp power cord etc. If its heavy its far forward. I even added a Bedroom AC unit so that extra weight is included in the figures. Naturally the kitchen and living area has weight from the everyday things that are needed. There’s just not that much weight that does go and can go in the bedroom.

My TV is a 2022 GMC Sierra 2500 4WD diesel CCSB SRW with a B&W Companion hitch. I certainly don’t think that the hitch is a problem and there does not appear to be any slop between the pin and the jaws. I’m not sure that I can claim that B&W is the best hitch going but I think that many here would agree that is a darn good hitch. My truck is stock although I did add air bags but I don’t need to put much air in them, just enough to level it out when hitched. I have had a few people tell me that its too much truck for the trailer but I don’t believe that I subscribe to that theory.

I have considered throwing a few sand bags under the bed storage but that seems so counter productive to add and haul around extra weight. I have also considered adding a Morryde rubber pin box but if the pin wt is too light I not sure that will help either. I read a theory on this forum that extra weight in the TV behind the axle would have the same effect as added weight to the pin so I added 7 water filled Aqua-Tainers (about 400lbs) behind the axle with no noticeable effect. I also have played with the air pressures of both the TV tires and the air bags also with no noticeable effect.

We had an Imagine bumper pull last year and figured that we would try a fifth wheel this year and thought that the 270bn was the perfect layout for us but had I known about the low pin weight consequences we truly would have considered a different model or brand. So I’m open for suggestions. Thoughts on adding the Morryde rubber pin box?
Thanks,
Hank

 

[Hoopy Frood]

Are you sure about the tare weight of the truck? 9400 lbs. for an empty 3/4 ton truck seems a bit high to me. Maybe that 9 should be an 8? Do you have a big toolbox or auxiliary fuel tank?

 

[bricknhank]

Are you sure about the tare weight of the truck? 9400 lbs. for an empty 3/4 ton truck seems a bit high to me. Maybe that 9 should be an 8? Do you have a big toolbox or auxiliary fuel tank?

As I stated, loaded up ready to camp which is how I’ve been told is the way to weigh it. Coolers etc. There’s a toolbox in the front of the bed but a small one. It does have a decent size bottle jack and some hitch stuff. No auxiliary fuel tank. A hard roll up tonneau cover as well.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

What kind of equalizer do you have?

 

[bricknhank]

What kind of equalizer do you have?

Equalizer? As in weight distributing bumper pull hitch?

 

[Hoopy Frood]

Equalizer? As in weight distributing bumper pull hitch?

No, the equalizer between the two trailer axles.

What is the GVWR of your truck? I still think that empty weight is incorrect. I just think 9400 lbs. is a lot. My Ram diesel dually with heavy toolbox and B&W puck hitch doesn't hit 10,000 lbs. Is this the first time you've weighed the truck? Maybe a fluke? Or I could totally be focused on the wrong thing. My Momentum is pin light, but it still comes in at 17%.

 

[bricknhank]

No, the equalizer between the two trailer axles.

What is the GVWR of your truck? I still think that empty weight is incorrect. I just think 9400 lbs. is a lot. My Ram diesel dually with heavy toolbox and B&W puck hitch doesn't hit 10,000 lbs. Is this the first time you've weighed the truck? Maybe a fluke? Or I could totally be focused on the wrong thing. My Momentum is pin light, but it still comes in at 17%.

GVWR 11,350. Curb weight on the door jamb says 8,137. No, it’s not the first time. I weighed my truck last year by itself without the trailer and it was 8820. I had a few things in the truck and the same toolbox but as I stated this recent weighing I had the truck loaded for camping. The 9,400 is not empty weight. Both times I weighed at a Cat Scale. I don’t remember if I had a full fuel tank last year at 8820 but I know that I had the fifth wheel hitch in. Obviously I had the fifth wheel hitch in this time with the trailer and a full tank. Besides the hard roll up tonneau which is fairly heavy, I also have a very thick rubber bed mat and a full length steel rifle safe under the back seat. I suppose all of those things add up. I don’t have an itemized list of everything.
Honest, I’m not lying about any of these numbers. The GVWR and Curb weight are directly from the door jamb. All of the other weights I’m reading directly from the Cat Scale yellow sheet. If these weights are “a fluke” than I suspect that Cat Scales may not be as dependable as they claim.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

Okay, that makes sense when everything is enumerated like that. I honestly figured the scale had made an error, but it surely doesn't look that way.

There's a thread with hitch weights for various Grand Design models: https://www.mygrandrv.com/forum/showthread.php/33615-Hitch-Weight-Survey. You might take a look through that and see if you get an idea of what your pin weight should be. 14% does seem to be a bit low, IMO anyway.

I don't think a 2500 is too much truck for a 10,000 lb. fifth wheel.

 

[Soundsailor]

I have a 2023 Reflection 150 270bn and I have a problem with chucking.

Yes, the 150 series does seem to run light on the pin. As you have done, we moved everything heavy to the front of the trailer which helped. Adding Sumo springs helped. What helped the most was upgrading the shocks on the TV to Bilstein 5100s.

 

[bricknhank]

Yes, the 150 series does seem to run light on the pin. As you have done, we moved everything heavy to the front of the trailer which helped. Adding Sumo springs helped. What helped the most was upgrading the shocks on the TV to Bilstein 5100s.

Yep, added Bilsteins about 6 months ago. I replaced the OEM Rancho shocks in which once I removed them they didn’t really seem as bad as some of the criticisms that I read. So consequently, didn’t notice any change.

 

[Soundsailor]

Yep, added Bilsteins about 6 months ago. I replaced the OEM Rancho shocks in which once I removed them they didn’t really seem as bad as some of the criticisms that I read. So consequently, didn’t notice any change.

My Ranchos must have been in worse shape than yours, I immediately noticed a difference in the ride when pulling and unloaded.

 

[mstapp]

We had a similar chucking problem with our Reflection 150 240RL. I added 3 of the 50 lb sandbags under the bed at the very front, as well as shifting some heavy items as far forward as I could. That solved the problem. I think our pin weight runs 19-20% now.

I also didn’t love the idea of adding dead weight, but finally decided that actually solving the problem was worth a couple hundred extra pounds.

 

[RoscoeTX]

Had the same problem with our 230RL and fixed it by moving from a extended cab long bed 3/4 ton (with air bags) to a crew cab, long bed 1 ton. Pricey fix but it worked. The problem is not so much the trailer's fault but is more effected by the response of the truck and truck suspension to the sudden movements caused by the road surface.

Adding a 1 ton style overload springs to your 3/4 ton truck and Sumo springs to your trailer would be my recommendation.

 

[RC621-GD]

I had an issue with chucking with F250 and 150 series 295RL but it was related to the hitch wedge. I have the Reese hitch with puck system and I have the king pin in pivoting mode. initially used the generic wedge provided with the king pin but once I bought the proper wedge from Reese, the problem was solved. Do you use the king pin in pivoting mode?

 

[bricknhank]

I had an issue with chucking with F250 and 150 series 295RL but it was related to the hitch wedge. I have the Reese hitch with puck system and I have the king pin in pivoting mode. initially used the generic wedge provided with the king pin but once I bought the proper wedge from Reese, the problem was solved. Do you use the king pin in pivoting mode?

I do not use the pivoting mode. Actually, I believe that B&W says not to with the Companion.

 

[bricknhank]

Had the same problem with our 230RL and fixed it by moving from a extended cab long bed 3/4 ton (with air bags) to a crew cab, long bed 1 ton. Pricey fix but it worked. The problem is not so much the trailer's fault but is more effected by the response of the truck and truck suspension to the sudden movements caused by the road surface.

Adding a 1 ton style overload springs to your 3/4 ton truck and Sumo springs to your trailer would be my recommendation.

I had a Morryde Independent Suspension added to the 270BN so it rides better than when I first got it. Sumo springs on the trailer wouldn’t help, nor do I think adding one ton springs to my truck would help any. I have a max payload of 3213lbs and max tongue weight of 2775lbs so I don’t think I need to make the ride any stiffer. That might help if I had a heavier trailer. The trailer doesn’t bounce because of the suspension, it’s because it’s so darn light at the pin. As mstapp mentioned, adding sandbags under the bed helped. That may very well be my next attempt as counterproductive as it may seem. Storing all of the kitchen an living area things in the bedroom and then moving them back once camping seems even more counterproductive though.
All of the suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Stealth13777]

Have you tried running with 1/3 - 2/3 of a tank of fresh water? I’m not positive on the location of the fresh tank in that model, but it’s usually forward of the axles. Half a tank of water is ~300-400lbs, plus you add convenience of always having water.

I’ve found running with (typically) 1/3 tank of fresh water makes my travel trailers tow better. More weight forward and low, without exceeding any weight limits. Might work for the 5th wheel too. Caveat that I don’t personally like running long distances with a full tank (hence suggesting only half)- that’s a lot of stress that could create a problem I don’t want to have to fix.

 

[bricknhank]

Have you tried running with 1/3 - 2/3 of a tank of fresh water? I’m not positive on the location of the fresh tank in that model, but it’s usually forward of the axles. Half a tank of water is ~300-400lbs, plus you add convenience of always having water.

I’ve found running with (typically) 1/3 tank of fresh water makes my travel trailers tow better. More weight forward and low, without exceeding any weight limits. Might work for the 5th wheel too. Caveat that I don’t personally like running long distances with a full tank (hence suggesting only half)- that’s a lot of stress that could create a problem I don’t want to have to fix.

I haven’t pulled down the underbelly netting (Coroplast?) however I did talk to Grand Design asking that specific question and they tell me that the fresh water tank on our model is behind the rear axle so traveling with fresh water would actually bring the weight just the opposite of the direction that I need to go.
Hank

 

[Stealth13777]

I haven’t pulled down the underbelly netting (Coroplast?) however I did talk to Grand Design asking that specific question and they tell me that the fresh water tank on our model is behind the rear axle so traveling with fresh water would actually bring the weight just the opposite of the direction that I need to go.
Hank

That’s a shame, woulda been an easy solution.

 

[bricknhank]

That’s a shame, woulda been an easy solution.

Yep, it should would have been. I thought of it a long time ago.