Taking Matters Into My Own Hands (Frame Flex Wise)

[Steven@147]

@Steven@147 I'll be interested in what you find on the curb side - the street side was the area I was also having some visible issues.

We'll see, I'll post pics of what I find on the right side. I got to get into the closet on both sides to see what's in there, if there are any holes unfilled.

 

[Steven@147]

@Steven@147 I'll be interested in what you find on the curb side - the street side was the area I was also having some visible issues.

Here you go, the right curbside of our RV. All of the original 4 bolts were loose. A piece of cake compared to the left driver side. Removed the dresser, carpet and the wood box - 4 screws driven into the wall.

6 Lag bolt holes, on the metal box frame, 4 were filled, the leading #1 hole and #3 were empty. JMO but to me the most important ones from the leading end.
I haven't looked inside the closet on either side to see if there are any lag bolts holes in there.

Tami and contemplated getting rid of the carpet, she thought of using contact paper but I don't think it would hold and look tacky. I thought of using dark paneling cutting pieces to cover the wood box then cover the seams with trim, but too much measuring and sawing on an 8 ft piece of paneling in a campground just to get what we need, and additional expense...........were tired.............We stapled the carpet back on.
Stainless steel 1/2x3 lag bolts are expensive.

Had to do some shoring up of the dresser, the pin nails and thin staples just didn't hold the thing together
When we got the dresser out the thing was all whopperjawed wobbly.

I broke down and bought a Ryobi rechargeable driver, Home Depot had them on sale, made life a lot easier.

 

[ajg617]

Here you go, the right curbside. A piece of cake compared to the left driver side. Removed the dresser, carpet and the wood box - 4 screws driven into the wall. 6 Holes on the metal box frame, 4 were filled, the leading #1 hole was empty.

Thanks Steven. I have the closet with W/D on the curb side an I'm guessing they weren't removed when I had the flex check. I think there would be one bolt or hole in there. There are four in the dresser area and I think there is one under faux wood trim between the dresser and the closet. No carpeting anywhere in ours - all wood molding covering the frame pieces. Kind of seems like that number one bolt wasn't a priority on that side.

 

[brandtb1919]

Here you go, the right curbside. A piece of cake compared to the left driver side. Removed the dresser, carpet and the wood box - 4 screws driven into the wall. 6 Holes on the metal box frame, 4 were filled, the leading #1 hole was empty.

I am just dumbfounded by this. Of all places to cut a corner. As an engineer my entire life revolves around the balance between cost, performance, and longevity. This just makes my head hurt.

I have been trying to wrap my head around this for a year+ now as to what is really going on. The best conclusion I can come to is that there is some perfect storm of building heavier units on the same frame geometry used for years, potentially more inferior materials, cutting corners (missing bolts, etc.) and more full-timers than ever on the road. All leading to a higher statistical probability of flex problems. One thing is for sure, the factories will never divulge the root cause if it is ever even known.

 

[brandtb1919]

Thanks Steven. I have the closet with W/D on the curb side an I'm guessing they weren't removed when I had the flex check. I think there would be one bolt or hole in there. There are four in the dresser area and I think there is one under faux wood trim between the dresser and the closet. No carpeting anywhere in ours - all wood molding covering the frame pieces. Kind of seems like that number one bolt wasn't a priority on that side.

I would be willing to bet that the one in your W/D closet has no bolt. I was missing a total of three on the curb side and two on the street side.

 

[brandtb1919]

Thanks Steven. I have the closet with W/D on the curb side an I'm guessing they weren't removed when I had the flex check. I think there would be one bolt or hole in there. There are four in the dresser area and I think there is one under faux wood trim between the dresser and the closet. No carpeting anywhere in ours - all wood molding covering the frame pieces. Kind of seems like that number one bolt wasn't a priority on that side.

I have to remove the box under the dresser to route an ethernet cable for Starlink next spring. I am very interested to see if any of my new bolts came loose after ~5000 miles of towing since I put them in.

 

[ajg617]

I would be willing to bet that the one in your W/D closet has no bolt. I was missing a total of three on the curb side and two on the street side.

That's my guess. Frustrating for me is to have taken it to the factory for this exact reason in April and on a fluke find two empty holes under the bed box in October. The paperwork said they replaced 8 3/8 with 12 1/2. Nope. One reason it is out at Elkhart now (suspension and frame issues further back is another).

 

[Steven@147]

I would be willing to bet that the one in your W/D closet has no bolt. I was missing a total of three on the curb side and two on the street side.

Yup I think so too. 6 on the right curb side but only 5 on the left street side? That wouldn't make sense.
Our washer connections are on the left street side, dryer on the right curb side.

 

[ajg617]

For those who are interested in numbers, the frame flex TSB is on the NHTSA website and more interesting, the manufacturer document that identifies the known number of incidents of the total population of 2017-2023 Momentums and Solitudes. Out of 55,887 RVs, there have been 23 incidents documented. Not too many and I'd suspect this is very much in line with other manufacturers. Obviously, this probably doesn't include those who have addressed the issue on their own. Pretty small number all in all though.

 

[Steven@147]

Thanks Steven. I have the closet with W/D on the curb side an I'm guessing they weren't removed when I had the flex check. I think there would be one bolt or hole in there. There are four in the dresser area and I think there is one under faux wood trim between the dresser and the closet. No carpeting anywhere in ours - all wood molding covering the frame pieces. Kind of seems like that number one bolt wasn't a priority on that side.

Yup, on the metal box frame outside of the closet, #1 holes were empty of bolts on both sides.

 

[Steven@147]

I am just dumbfounded by this. Of all places to cut a corner. As an engineer my entire life revolves around the balance between cost, performance, and longevity. This just makes my head hurt.

I have been trying to wrap my head around this for a year+ now as to what is really going on. The best conclusion I can come to is that there is some perfect storm of building heavier units on the same frame geometry used for years, potentially more inferior materials, cutting corners (missing bolts, etc.) and more full-timers than ever on the road. All leading to a higher statistical probability of flex problems. One thing is for sure, the factories will never divulge the root cause if it is ever even known.

I am nowhere near being an engineer, but it seems to me there are a lot of factors all happening at the same time causing the problems for some and not others.
Frames cracking and breaking in different places for different reasons? Traditional pan hitches Vs Goosenecks with the welds breaking in and around the pin box area.
Then frames cracking or breaking at welds farther back aft on the overhang.

Type of hitch causing problems. Inadequate design. OEM not communicating with the Frame Builder. Too much overhang weight. Water intrusion. No clear specification on max frame pin weight. No gussets used - butt welding. Bad welding. Bad Interstate highways. Production Cost cutting. Bad labor practices. Bad sloppy corrective action. Your guess is as good as mine.

Then again why in the heck would you have a metal beam with 6 or seven holes for bolts and not install all of them? Also to use smaller bolts than should be used? I have read that the OEM has said they want a certain amount of flex in the frame, they want it to flex. If it doesn't flex, it will break. Seems to me that if it keeps flexing, bending, that will cause it to break.

If the RV frame was rigid, all lag bolt holes filled, frame non flexing, Is there enough cushion with the tow vehicle suspension (springs) to cushion the overhang of the frame from jarring, shock, potholes and what-not traveling down the road?

The thing I also noticed is the metal beams running down both sides, you would think (assume) the beams are exactly the same length, are parallel to each other, and the end of the beams are directly across the floor from each other (not staggered), and have the same number of holes for bolts in the same place on the beam.
Well in our case, (outside of the closet area) the left side has 5 holes showing and the right side has 6 holes showing and the holes are not in the same place on the beams..

There is a whole lot I don't know, or understand.

 

[ajg617]

@Steven@147 I don't understand the empty holes either - surely the holes were put their for a reason. And, everything else you mention is spot on. I understand the need for flex but sooner or later, something has to give. I was told by LCI (warranty claim on suspension) that the cause was the poor interstate system. That excuse blows my mind and means LCI is building frames that aren't capable of being used on today's roads. I already know that my main beams are not the same length. To make up for that, LCI welded the hangers offset on one side so that my axles were permanently aimed to the door side - and they couldn't line them up straight front to back. Just terrible quality from LCI.

 

[goducks14]

For those who are interested in numbers, the frame flex TSB is on the NHTSA website and more interesting, the manufacturer document that identifies the known number of incidents of the total population of 2017-2023 Momentums and Solitudes. Out of 55,887 RVs, there have been 23 incidents documented. Not too many and I'd suspect this is very much in line with other manufacturers. Obviously, this probably doesn't include those who have addressed the issue on their own. Pretty small number all in all though.

23 is only the number of complaints filed with the NHTSA. There's man many more and GD is the biggest offender at the moment. We will never know the full extent of this because GD is making customers sign NDA's. If it wasn't an issue then GD wouldn't of upped the lag bolt size and number as well as extending the warranty.

 

[ajg617]

I did not have to sign an NDA when having this addressed at Elkhart so a blanket statement of GD making customers sign an NDA is factually incorrect. May have happened in the past, but I doubt very seriously that it is across the board now and that those who are proactively taking their rigs to dealers are forced to sign an NDA by the dealerships.

 

[Hoopy Frood]

I did not have to sign an NDA when having this addressed at Elkhart so a blanket statement of GD making customers sign an NDA is factually incorrect. May have happened in the past, but I doubt very seriously that it is across the board now and that those who are proactively taking their rigs to dealers are forced to sign an NDA by the dealerships.

Just curious if anyone on this forum has ever had to sign an NDA? I'm kind of wondering if it isn't more FUD misinformation by YouTubers.

 

[Scott'n'Wendy]

Great posting, and thank you for taking the time to make such a detailed post. Need people like you working in the industry in Quality control.
We just purchased a 2024 303rls and getting ready for a 3-month trip. Not knowing what to suspect and if 303 are experiencing such problems

You are in a different weight class. My 2021 303RLS is fine and I haven't heard of any 303 owners experiencing the lag bolt/flex problem. Although there probably a few...somewhere.

 

[Steven@147]

Oh My, I took a look inside the front closet area of our Solitude 3350RL S Class. The whole closet floor, mid level shelving and upper shelf are all stapled together as one huge piece. One huge assembly. You would have to remove the whole complete closet assembly just to get at the bottom of the sides to see if there were any more lag bolts holes in the metal box frame inside the closet area.

I would have to somehow section the floor panel on the outside most parts. Somehow get in there and cut the floor panel on the very outside with some kind of saw, not knowing what is underneath of the closet floor one might be cutting into. Somewhere down in there is the propane hose that runs across the front between the tanks. And there maybe wiring down in there for the front "V" and pinbox 12VDC lights.

I put everything back in the closet, I'll think about this for a couple days to figure out how I am going to get in there, and section the floor panel

 

[ajg617]

Oh My, I took a look inside the front closet area of our Solitude 3350RL S Class. The whole closet floor, mid level shelving and upper shelf are all stapled together as one huge piece. One huge assembly. You would have to remove the whole complete closet assembly just to get at the bottom of the sides to see if there were any more lag bolts holes in the metal box frame inside the closet area.

I put everything back in the closet, I'll think about this for a couple days to figure out how I am going to get in there, and section the floor panel

I wonder if some of the forward bolts are accessible by dropping the filon? It's noted in the TSB that not all lag bolts can be examined from the interior but it doesn't specify how to examine those and simply references photos on pages 2 & 3 which show only the interior portions covered by carpeting or wood cover blocks.