LCI has trucks on the road the same as GD. One came to where we were at last year in Florida. Fixed our broken spring hanger and he was good.
The Heartbreak of Delamination
- Thread starter Chiefblueman
- Start date
-
- Tags
- mygrandrv
MidwestCamper
Senior Member
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Thanks for asking, Jim.
Grand Design dropped the ball. I asked my customer service rep to verify with the dealership that the repair was scheduled with them and that the factory mobile repair unit would be there on the scheduled date. His response was - "have your trailer there, our guy will be there".
The scheduled date was last Tue. the 12th. I rec'd an email from GDRV on 11/7 saying they were on track for having their guy at the dealership on 11/12 and wanted me to confirm I would get the trailer there, which I did.
I decided to call the dealership on Mon. the 11th just to make sure I wasn't taking a 150 mile round trip for nothing. Sure enough, the service manager hadn't heard word one from GDRV, didn't know who I was and had no knowledge of a GDRV repair tech coming his way. He told me if I brought my trailer there he would have to turn me around and take it home. He also said he does not have the facilities to do this repair.
I contacted the supervisor of the CS agent handling my case, told him what was going on and asked to have the current agent removed from my case. He looked into what happened and basically said somebody had dropped the ball and he would handle my case. That was last Monday, haven't heard a word since.
My past warranty issues with GDRV were handled superbly. This time it's being handled, frankly, in a half assed manner. I tried to send an email today to this gentleman and it came back unable to send due to work being done to his account. I'm starting to feel like I'm no longer a valued customer even though I'm well within the warranty period.
Interesting note - We have a new Grand Design dealer in Western Washington - Clear Creek RV. I went there today and spoke with their service manager. They have a fully equipped body shop and have done several delam repairs. He's not too thrilled about GDRV's proposed method of regluing and clamping. They are authorized to do warranty work for GDRV and he is happy to work with them to facilitate the repair. I'm going to try to get the venue changed to this dealership. I may be taking my case to Jerry McCarthy.
BTW, got to tour a new Solitude S Class 2930. IMHO, one of the best floorplans out there for a 34 ft 5er.
MidwestCamper
Senior Member
Kim,
Based on past GDRV handling of issues in general, I suspect this primarily was a dealer issue in not wanting to be bothered with the delamination work. I would bet GDRV will take of you through the better equipped dealer.
Based on past GDRV handling of issues in general, I suspect this primarily was a dealer issue in not wanting to be bothered with the delamination work. I would bet GDRV will take of you through the better equipped dealer.
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Jim,
GDRV admitted somebody on their team dropped the ball. The dealership was never contacted by them. While I don't think it was intentional, it's a far cry from my previous dealings with GDRV customer service. Earlier this spring GDRV repaired and replaced most of the running gear under my trailer at a cost of several thousand dollars. The case was pursued methodically, pertinent info was exchanged between us and I was kept in the loop as each step was taken. It took time and patience and there was never a question about the proper way to accomplish the repair. Excellent customer service. BTW, this was outside the 1 year warranty.
I'm still not convinced the repair method they want to use is a good one.
https://www.granddesignowners.com/f...h-camber-issue-on-Imagine?p=197638#post197638
See post #9 .
The delamination on my trailer is virtually identical to this, but in 3 or 4 areas. This gentleman had his slide wall replaced by GDRV without question, as have others on this forum, with great success. I've had two GDRV service mgrs. and two longtime independent repair facilities tell me a reglue and clamp is a bandaid.
Sorry for the bit of a rant, but right now I'm a little perturbed with my CS team. I do thank you for your interest.
MidwestCamper
Senior Member
Kim,
At least GDRV owed up to the issue. My issue looked just like the #9 picture you referenced. I had this in two locations above the slide. My dealer cut this out and re-glassed in two pieces where they claimed they have had plenty of experience in utilizing this method. I was also reluctant where it looks good and time will tell if it comes back. They also explained to me about using the glue and clamp method where they mentioned they have had good success in doing this. I like you, feel the same where my wife and I really like this Rig but being a short time til retirement, I am not planning on buying another and hope I have no more issues. We plan to snowbird in the winter for 2-3 months each year once we retire.
Steve&Camy
Advanced Member
Delaminations in Wall above Slide due to Loss of Frame Camber?
Are the wall delaminations discussed above (narrow wall above slide-out) attributed to a loss of frame camber as posted by Sidthekid in thread titled "Need help with camber issue on Imagine"?
Sidthekid had major repairs done (entire wall replacement + supports welded along sides of frame), however the above repairs are only patching the wall skin above slide.
I am concerned about my rig when warranty ends as we have only put 7500 miles on it so far (I suspect all similar trailers may develop this problem at some time).
If the trailer frame is manufactured with a camber (arched up like on-highway flatbeds), such that the frame becomes flat when the weight of box is on it, then a "loss of camber" would imply the frame has sagged even further.
This frame sag between hitch and wheels would produce a compressive force along the top of trailer box that would affect the weakest area of wall the first (i.e. the wall above slide). A weight distributing hitch will add a little more sag since it pushes down on the A-frame about 2ft behind hitch ball (Equilizer type of WD).
I can imagine the two horizontal square aluminum tubes in wall above slide might bow in response to compressive forces thus shearing the adhesive bond between tube and plywood skin.
So, I am wondering if Grand Design is now fixing loss-of-camber problems by repairing the wall damage without the bigger expense of restoring the frame camber.
Are the wall delaminations discussed above (narrow wall above slide-out) attributed to a loss of frame camber as posted by Sidthekid in thread titled "Need help with camber issue on Imagine"?
Sidthekid had major repairs done (entire wall replacement + supports welded along sides of frame), however the above repairs are only patching the wall skin above slide.
I am concerned about my rig when warranty ends as we have only put 7500 miles on it so far (I suspect all similar trailers may develop this problem at some time).
If the trailer frame is manufactured with a camber (arched up like on-highway flatbeds), such that the frame becomes flat when the weight of box is on it, then a "loss of camber" would imply the frame has sagged even further.
This frame sag between hitch and wheels would produce a compressive force along the top of trailer box that would affect the weakest area of wall the first (i.e. the wall above slide). A weight distributing hitch will add a little more sag since it pushes down on the A-frame about 2ft behind hitch ball (Equilizer type of WD).
I can imagine the two horizontal square aluminum tubes in wall above slide might bow in response to compressive forces thus shearing the adhesive bond between tube and plywood skin.
So, I am wondering if Grand Design is now fixing loss-of-camber problems by repairing the wall damage without the bigger expense of restoring the frame camber.
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
I think this could be a possibility. The 315 has 10 inch frame rails but they are long.
The problem, at least in my case, is having a qualified entity determining whether or not this is the case. GDRV, in my case, wants to perform the least costly repair possible. They will not consider any other option than a reglue and clamp approach. They are not interested in determining the cause of the issue. Wall replacement out of the question. GDRV has basically told me - this is what we will do and we won't do anything else. Since Grand Design dropped the ball in scheduling their proposed repair (see post #23 , this thread), I have received no further communication despite repeated emails to my "customer service" rep. It doesn't seem they would be eager to determine there is a frame camber issue, reinforce the frame and replace the wall. My sense of this is that warranty costs may be getting a bit high and they want to hold costs down.
Getting back to frame camber. A 40ft flatbed trailer used for hauling behind a semi tractor has the axles placed very near or at the rear of the trailer, the camber from hitch to axle. I would call it a positive arch or camber and is very visible. I hauled many a load on trailers like this.
A travel trailer on the other hand, has the axles more centrally located. In the case of a 315RLTS, the back of the trailer is some 12 - 14ft behind the rear axle. I could see some camber used between axles and hitch to offset weight distribution from the hitch. It seems this positive arch would have the rear of the trailer drooping a bit. Two things I see on my trailer. The damage has occurred behind the axles. The damage looks like compressive damage from excess positive arch or camber, ie: the delam is greater at the bottom than at the top.
I'm no engineer. I am dismayed that GDRV is not interested in determining the cause of this issue. I don't really know who could determine whether this was an issue or not. Being a couple thousand miles from the factory doesn't help, neither does the lack of interest by GDRV.
In answer to your last question, it does feel like GDRV wants to perform a repair to get through the warranty period without determining root cause.
Seems like a lot of problems with frames and movement regardless of brand. Sorry to hear of your problems. We are considering a 312BHTS but this has me seriously wondering whether GD is for real or it's marketing hype. Right now we have a FR Rockwood (28' box) BH that has had zero issues in three years.
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Brewhedd, thanks for your sympathy.
I seriously believe my trailer is the exception and not the rule. Delamination can happen with any laminated wall and I would bet it doesn't happen any more often with GD than their competition. Remember, you're usually seeing problems posted on the internet. I wouldn't be posting about "no delamination so far".
I doubt this issue was caused by frame movement but am having it checked by the factory.
I initially thought GD Reflections were a bit higher quality unit than others in its class. I no longer posit this. They have great floorplans and interior fit and finish is better than most I've seen but the construction is no better or worse than the rest overall. They use the same components as most others and the wiring and plumbing techniques are just as bad as any of them. They use Lippert frames and in my case suspension. This is not a swing at GD, just my honest opinion.
Any product line is going to have its lemons and I think my trailer is a little "lemonish". But one of the reasons I purchased Grand Design was their reputation for standing behind their product. I have tested this reputation far more than I ever wanted to. At least they are doing their best to make it right although this time I had to work for it. I sincerely hope GD thinks about pulling some money from their warranty budget and applying it to quality control on the assembly line. I've expressed this sentiment to upper management.
BTW, I still love the darn thing and really enjoy using it.
Any news on how it is going?
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Wish I could say yes. Emailed Brad last Tuesday and haven't received a response. Not sure why taking a minute to respond is so difficult.
MidwestCamper
Senior Member
Brewhedd, thanks for your sympathy.
I seriously believe my trailer is the exception and not the rule. Delamination can happen with any laminated wall and I would bet it doesn't happen any more often with GD than their competition. Remember, you're usually seeing problems posted on the internet. I wouldn't be posting about "no delamination so far".
I doubt this issue was caused by frame movement but am having it checked by the factory.
I initially thought GD Reflections were a bit higher quality unit than others in its class. I no longer posit this. They have great floorplans and interior fit and finish is better than most I've seen but the construction is no better or worse than the rest overall. They use the same components as most others and the wiring and plumbing techniques are just as bad as any of them. They use Lippert frames and in my case suspension. This is not a swing at GD, just my honest opinion.
Any product line is going to have its lemons and I think my trailer is a little "lemonish". But one of the reasons I purchased Grand Design was their reputation for standing behind their product. I have tested this reputation far more than I ever wanted to. At least they are doing their best to make it right although this time I had to work for it. I sincerely hope GD thinks about pulling some money from their warranty budget and applying it to quality control on the assembly line. I've expressed this sentiment to upper management.
BTW, I still love the darn thing and really enjoy using it.
Kim,
When are you getting your rig back? I hope this works out perfectly for you. General RV glassed in two solid panels in the center of the section over my slide where they basically broke up the seam that originally ran from the slide out to the roof. Time will tell if this does not come back where after replacing Chinese tires, and re-working the suspension on my Imagine, I also have love hate thoughts with my purchase. Warranty service has been great but what happens when we are out of warranty? In the auto world we have rigs called shakers where a car can be loaded up and the four corners are hydraulically actuated to simulate various road conditions with inputs to each wheel. Wouldn't it be nice if these camper manufactures had one of these so each new design can be thoroughly tested before launching the product? Or if this is too expensive, a small track around the facility could be devised to have several different types of road conditions built in for durability testing? This is also done in the auto world along with dyno durability testing. However it seems issues are found and get reported by the customers which only then leads to design improvements.
Not thrilled with what i am seeing as far as "customer service" lately.....Maybe they go too big to fast...?
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Jim,
Thanks for the good wishes. Valerie at GD has targeted the first week in March to have my trailer back. We have trip planned for Mid March, our annual coming out from Winter run. Head down to Cape Disappointment near the mouth of the Columbia and possibly spend several days in cold rain. I don't care, I'll be out with friends in an area I love.
The experiences I've had with this trailer have changed my view on the RV industry. This is only our second rig, our previous being a Jayco Jayfeather 29N. 29 ft long with one slide and 5100lbs dry. In 10 years I had 1 minor plumbing leak under the kitchen sink, fixed by tightening a clamp and a few loose screws. No cabin leaks, tire problems, delams, never even peeked above the coroplast, heck even the decals held up. It had Dexter torsion axles, rode and handled like a dream behind my 1/2 ton Silverado SS. It came with a little 5 speaker surround sound system that blows away the Furrion junk we have now. It was plumbed and wired on the same level as the 315, though. Never saw a dealer, never called the factory...…..errrr…...there was that time I learned about tail swing next to a guard rail
Had to cal a dealer to order the 10ft long skirt and rear valence panel. Did the work myself. She was short on amenities, like it had one drawer, but we had a blast with it and loved it. It was a cool trailer, I only saw one other identical to it in 10 years. We paid 20k out the door, very little haggling. We traded her in on the 315 and I was pleasantly surprised when the dealer offered 13k right off the bat based on my description of the rig. Pretty good for a 10 year old ultra lightweight. I'm known for taking very good care of my shi….err stuff. When we arrived at the dealer with the Jaybird in tow the sales manager made those dry handwashing motions and grinned. He had it sold while we were doing our PDI, before it was disconnected from the truck.
There are times I miss the trailer we affectionately called The Jaybird.
The 315 was a different story. We had been shopping for a year and saw a LOT of trailers. We knew this one was it! I didn't take a full bite of the GD Quality pitch but I did feel it was a cut above the rest of the rigs in this range.
Out of the gate the dealer tried a little switcheroo and thought he'd screw me out of the second A/C. I wasn't having it so instead of the one moved from another dealership we ordered new from the factory. When I got it home it needed new brakes all around, first day. Did the work myself, then saw the wimpy Harbor Freight shackles and the already worn OUT plastic suspension bushings. Wetbolts and bronze bushings, CRE3000 at my time and expense. Since then the entire suspension has been replaced/upgraded (courtesy of GD). Several other things that I could fix myself, I'm pretty handy even if I do say so myself. Now delamination
As far as engineering goes, one look at the on-the-edge suspension gives me a clue as to engineering. IMHO this is the last thing on a trailer you should have to worry about. Too many folks having issues here and that's a shame. This crude suspension technology, engineered and executed properly, should give years of trouble free service. Yep, it's not cutting edge, but it works. Been around it my whole life in construction.
Whew...sorry I went a bit long
I'm a little leery of my beloved trailer. I love it, love using it and am proud to own it but she's wearing me and DW out, mentally and physically. I do not think the failures of my trailer are representative of all and I'm placing my money on the GDRV factory repair folks. I'm hoping this will be the last of the major issues. I can't get rid of it, got too much invested in mods and such! BTW Jim and the rest of you folks out there that show interest in my issues, I thank you. This Forum and the folks in it have proven to be a pleasant requirement to owning my Grand Design trailer. Just stop coming up with clever mods, my wallet is aching!
Last edited:
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Progress!
Received a call from Valerie at GDRV yesterday. The street side wall has been replaced and work has begun on the curb side. Should have the trailer back in time to reload it and head out in mid March.
Received a call from Valerie at GDRV yesterday. The street side wall has been replaced and work has begun on the curb side. Should have the trailer back in time to reload it and head out in mid March.
thats great news! Did they ever find the reason behind failure?
OP
OP
Chiefblueman
Guest
Update: Good news/Bad news
First, I apologize to Jims94vmx for not responding sooner. Jim, GDRV hasn't given me any other explanation than telling me all parameters of the lamination process, temp, proper application of glue, humidity, pressure and time must all be perfect. That apparently didn't happen here. Hope they were very careful building the new walls.
The Good News. My trailer should have been completed as of Friday and should be on its way soon. Valerie has been a pleasure to work with and has taken care of a few other things "while they're in there".
The Bad News. I probably won't be able to receive the trailer to check it out and give a report, at least not for a while. A serious health issue has taken me out of the game for awhile.
I've spent many enjoyable hours on this forum, learning new things and finding never ending ways to spend money! The best part of this forum is the people that participate in it. Even though we've never met, I feel like I know some of you and would be proud to call you friend. Hopefully we meet sometime down the dusty trail.
I'd like to ask you folks to donate blood if you're so inclined. It is the gift of life, one of the best things you can do for another. Our blood banks are struggling at times to keep up with demand. Without the generosity of donors, many would suffer.
I'll be around from time to time and expect y'all to keep me entertained and informed
!
First, I apologize to Jims94vmx for not responding sooner. Jim, GDRV hasn't given me any other explanation than telling me all parameters of the lamination process, temp, proper application of glue, humidity, pressure and time must all be perfect. That apparently didn't happen here. Hope they were very careful building the new walls.
The Good News. My trailer should have been completed as of Friday and should be on its way soon.
Valerie has been a pleasure to work with and has taken care of a few other things "while they're in there".The Bad News. I probably won't be able to receive the trailer to check it out and give a report, at least not for a while. A serious health issue has taken me out of the game for awhile.
I've spent many enjoyable hours on this forum, learning new things and finding never ending ways to spend money! The best part of this forum is the people that participate in it. Even though we've never met, I feel like I know some of you and would be proud to call you friend. Hopefully we meet sometime down the dusty trail.
I'd like to ask you folks to donate blood if you're so inclined. It is the gift of life, one of the best things you can do for another. Our blood banks are struggling at times to keep up with demand. Without the generosity of donors, many would suffer.
I'll be around from time to time and expect y'all to keep me entertained and informed
!Country Campers
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2018
- Posts
- 2,356
Chief
Our thoughts and prayers will be with you in your time of need.
I know we are on different sides of the country, but aside from donating blood , if there is anything we can do please let us know.
Good luck and will be watching for you.
Brian
Our thoughts and prayers will be with you in your time of need.
I know we are on different sides of the country, but aside from donating blood , if there is anything we can do please let us know.
Good luck and will be watching for you.
Brian
Similar threads
- chatwitcat
- General Discussion
- Replies: 5
- Views: 706
- vince musso
- Slide Systems
- Replies: 2
- Views: 356
- Ellamare
- General Discussion
- Replies: 2
- Views: 280
Try RV LIFE Pro Free for 7 Days
- Ad-Free experience on this RV LIFE Community.
- Plan the best RV Safe travel with RV LIFE Trip Wizard.
- Navigate with our RV Safe GPS mobile app.
- and much more...
