Truck towing capacities and maximum tongue weight does not add up?

Did you not read my reply?

If you had a flat deck trailer that loaded with stuff weighed 18500 lbs your truck could haul it all day because the tongue weight would likely be 10 percent or less

Now could you haul a 18500 lb travel trailer( if it existed)? Absolutely not

But like I said tow ratings from manufacturers are based off of boats and flat decks not travel trailers

On edit. Boats generally have tongue weights as low as 6-7 percent

Show me. Manufacturers don’t differentiate.
Rich
 
Show me. Manufacturers don’t differentiate.
Rich
Easier for you to show one that does

Every brochure I have ever seen will list a specific tow rating and the tongue weight will always be 10 percent of that number

If you know of something different I have never seen it in my 30 plus year career in the auto industry
 
This all comes down to the SAE J2807 towing standards all the manufacturers test to these days.

You will see that one of the assumptions for the test standard is that tongue weight is 10% of the load. These tests determine what the manufacturer lists as the towing capacity of a truck.

I look at this the same way I look at fuel economy specs. It's a good way to maybe compare 1 truck to another, but may have little to do with the reality of towing a particular trailer. You are still limited by your payload, gvwr, gawr, and that is directly related to what you're towing,and hitch setup. Common sense tells you that a boat trailer or flat bed will likely have a much lower tongue weight percentage than a travel trailer, and that you will need a higher percentage of the weight on the tongue of a travel trailer to prevent sway, so you likely won't be able to tow your manufacturer's tow rating in travel trailer pounds. In fact, it probably won't come close.

Here are a couple of links to explanations of the test standards the manufacturers use:

https://jalopnik.com/what-is-sae-j2807-what-does-it-mean-for-trucks-1593305929

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1...pass, while on an,12 percent grade in Reverse.

Edit: On a related thought, here's a link to an interesting article concerning recommendations on how to set up a weight distribution hitch as it applies to the SAE testing and how real world experience might differ from the standard.

https://www.rvlifemag.com/setting-your-torsion-bars/
 
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I have been towing trailers for a long, long time. I learned by the school of hard knocks what happens when you load a trailer impropperly and it can be scary. Back when I started towing trailers there was no tag to tell you what your capacity was. If the nose of the truck was too high in the air, you got a load equalizing hitch. It was a steep learning curve. The first vehicle I ever bought was a 23.5" travel trailer. I towed it with my dad's 59 Willy's pickup with a swapped in chevy V-8. That old truck was classed as a one ton, but only had a 6000 gvwr. My first truck was a 1970 Chevy Blazer and I towed a travel trailer all the time into some places that you couldn't imagine. I can remember being told "that blazer is too short to tow a big trailer like that" Challenge accepted and the learning began.

Fast forward to now and every truck made is leaps and bounds ahead of the old trucks we had. The capabilities are amazing, but now that we are given so many numbers to look at you have to be very careful choosing a tow vehicle. My last two trucks were a 2002 Chevy 2500 short bed crew cab, duramax. I put a flat bed on it and towed a 11,000 pound Holiday Rambler 5th wheel with a second trailer behind it, either a boat trailer or a horse trailer with two horses. Truck did great, I added one ton rear springs and air bags and kept my combined weight below 26,000 lbs according to my Highway patrol buddy to be legal with my license. Thinking back on it, that truck had a 9200 lb gvwr and it was usually about 12k plus loaded. I replaced that truck with a 2017 Chevy 3500 LB CC, duramax with a 11,600 gvwr. Then I bought the 310GK. I usually had a 60 gallon fuel tank in the bed of the truck and for quite a while a onan quiet diesel 5500 generator also in the bed. I added a Ranch hand front bumper with a 18k winch. I would weigh the combo on every trip because where I live in Wyoming there are free scales at WYDOT locations and you can just drive across the scale and weigh each axle. On my 2017 truck I remember well what my axle weights were from scaling it all the time with the 310GK. My front axle would be right at 5600, my rear axle would be between 7100 and 7500 depending on how much fresh water was in the trailer. An empty fresh water tank would put me at 7500 lbs on the rear axle with the truck full of fuel, the spare tank full and the generator in the bed and the trailer loaded for travel. Trailer axles would usually be around 11k. Needless to say I was over my max weight for the truck because of my additions. Never had any issues though for 90k. I upgraded to a 2023 GMC dually with a 14k gvwr and I usually have about a 1000 lb cushion now. The dually is rated for a 2000 lb tongue load and at least 20k conventional trailer and over 30k fifth wheel or gooseneck with a 40k max combined weight. Getting to max weight rating for any of these trucks could be tricky and probably not ideal.
Back to the OP main question, a person needs to shop carefully for your needs. I have seen posts of people with 2500 Ram trucks that only have around 1800 lbs of payload with the Cummins, but they are rated to tow 18,000 lbs. This might work for a conventional flatbed trailer, but good luck finding a fifth wheel or travel trailer that would fit into those guidelines.
Bottom line is these newer trucks are very capable, but the lawyers for the auto makers want to give themselves as much protection as possible. I always err on the side of caution. I will adjust the tongue weight so that the trailer tows good without any sway. On these newer trucks they are rated to tow a heavy load without a load equalizing hitch. If you have sway problems you could always add sway control but that isn't the spring bars, just a friction bar that attaches to a ball on the trailer frame and a ball welded to the side of your hitch. Most of the heavy weight ratings are probably for equipment type trailers hauling tractors, skidsteers or even backhoes. I have hauled all of these and you move the machine forward or back to get the load on the truck right. I usually load the truck to where the overloads on my springs are in contact. On a 2500 you don't have overloads, but you can look at the spring pack in relation to the bottom leaf spring and the distance between the axle bump stops.
 
This all comes down to the SAE J2807 towing standards all the manufacturers test to these days.

You will see that one of the assumptions for the test standard is that tongue weight is 10% of the load. These tests determine what the manufacturer lists as the towing capacity of a truck.

I look at this the same way I look at fuel economy specs. It's a good way to maybe compare 1 truck to another, but may have little to do with the reality of towing a particular trailer. You are still limited by your payload, gvwr, gawr, and that is directly related to what you're towing,and hitch setup. Common sense tells you that a boat trailer or flat bed will likely have a much lower tongue weight percentage than a travel trailer, and that you will need a higher percentage of the weight on the tongue of a travel trailer to prevent sway, so you likely won't be able to tow your manufacturer's tow rating in travel trailer pounds. In fact, it probably won't come close.

Here are a couple of links to explanations of the test standards the manufacturers use:

https://jalopnik.com/what-is-sae-j2807-what-does-it-mean-for-trucks-1593305929

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/1...pass, while on an,12 percent grade in Reverse.

Edit: On a related thought, here's a link to an interesting article concerning recommendations on how to set up a weight distribution hitch as it applies to the SAE testing and how real world experience might differ from the standard.

https://www.rvlifemag.com/setting-your-torsion-bars/

I have been towing trailers for a long, long time. I learned by the school of hard knocks what happens when you load a trailer impropperly and it can be scary. Back when I started towing trailers there was no tag to tell you what your capacity was. If the nose of the truck was too high in the air, you got a load equalizing hitch. It was a steep learning curve. The first vehicle I ever bought was a 23.5" travel trailer. I towed it with my dad's 59 Willy's pickup with a swapped in chevy V-8. That old truck was classed as a one ton, but only had a 6000 gvwr. My first truck was a 1970 Chevy Blazer and I towed a travel trailer all the time into some places that you couldn't imagine. I can remember being told "that blazer is too short to tow a big trailer like that" Challenge accepted and the learning began.

Fast forward to now and every truck made is leaps and bounds ahead of the old trucks we had. The capabilities are amazing, but now that we are given so many numbers to look at you have to be very careful choosing a tow vehicle. My last two trucks were a 2002 Chevy 2500 short bed crew cab, duramax. I put a flat bed on it and towed a 11,000 pound Holiday Rambler 5th wheel with a second trailer behind it, either a boat trailer or a horse trailer with two horses. Truck did great, I added one ton rear springs and air bags and kept my combined weight below 26,000 lbs according to my Highway patrol buddy to be legal with my license. Thinking back on it, that truck had a 9200 lb gvwr and it was usually about 12k plus loaded. I replaced that truck with a 2017 Chevy 3500 LB CC, duramax with a 11,600 gvwr. Then I bought the 310GK. I usually had a 60 gallon fuel tank in the bed of the truck and for quite a while a onan quiet diesel 5500 generator also in the bed. I added a Ranch hand front bumper with a 18k winch. I would weigh the combo on every trip because where I live in Wyoming there are free scales at WYDOT locations and you can just drive across the scale and weigh each axle. On my 2017 truck I remember well what my axle weights were from scaling it all the time with the 310GK. My front axle would be right at 5600, my rear axle would be between 7100 and 7500 depending on how much fresh water was in the trailer. An empty fresh water tank would put me at 7500 lbs on the rear axle with the truck full of fuel, the spare tank full and the generator in the bed and the trailer loaded for travel. Trailer axles would usually be around 11k. Needless to say I was over my max weight for the truck because of my additions. Never had any issues though for 90k. I upgraded to a 2023 GMC dually with a 14k gvwr and I usually have about a 1000 lb cushion now. The dually is rated for a 2000 lb tongue load and at least 20k conventional trailer and over 30k fifth wheel or gooseneck with a 40k max combined weight. Getting to max weight rating for any of these trucks could be tricky and probably not ideal.
Back to the OP main question, a person needs to shop carefully for your needs. I have seen posts of people with 2500 Ram trucks that only have around 1800 lbs of payload with the Cummins, but they are rated to tow 18,000 lbs. This might work for a conventional flatbed trailer, but good luck finding a fifth wheel or travel trailer that would fit into those guidelines.
Bottom line is these newer trucks are very capable, but the lawyers for the auto makers want to give themselves as much protection as possible. I always err on the side of caution. I will adjust the tongue weight so that the trailer tows good without any sway. On these newer trucks they are rated to tow a heavy load without a load equalizing hitch. If you have sway problems you could always add sway control but that isn't the spring bars, just a friction bar that attaches to a ball on the trailer frame and a ball welded to the side of your hitch. Most of the heavy weight ratings are probably for equipment type trailers hauling tractors, skidsteers or even backhoes. I have hauled all of these and you move the machine forward or back to get the load on the truck right. I usually load the truck to where the overloads on my springs are in contact. On a 2500 you don't have overloads, but you can look at the spring pack in relation to the bottom leaf spring and the distance between the axle bump stops.

^^^^ x2.
I’m an ASE Master Tech as well.
Rich
 
The tag inside the frame of your driver's side door tells you what the manufacturer posted as the maximum load should be on the two axles of your tow vehicle. It is referred to as GVWR.

Slightly different for my TV. GVWR is 12,300lbs. GAWR front (6,000) plus GAWR rear (7000) is 13,000lbs. So my GVWR is 700lbs less than combined GAWRs.
 
TL;DR I am not worried about my rated tonque weight anymore. Its a bullshit number. Just gonna make sure my GVWR and GAWR values are not exceeded and even then if I was over not sure it actually makes a huge difference. Just pump up the tires :)

----

Yeah the numbers on the placard a lot of times don't make a ton of sense at times. They are usually just numbers backed into from the stated GVWR of the tow vehicle. While shopping for my truck I literally saw multiple AT4 and Denali 2500HD trucks with quite different GVWR numbers but identical builds. And all those trucks have the exact same suspension, same springs, same frame, same tow hitch and same axles. You can even get 2500HD tucks with max tow packages which put the same spring package on the truck (and I think the 12" ring gear rear axle) as the 3500HD and increased the GVWR somewhat, but does not get to the 12200# or so you can get on the 3500HDs (2500HD tops out at like 11750# I think). But they are basically identical trucks at that point, yet the 3500HD is rated for sometimes 450# more capacity.

The 2500HD with max tow and 3500HD I *think* all come with the 12" ring gears, but it's not clear if the axles are the same in those as I have found lots of conflicting information but they do seem to change the ring gear to tow more. So not sure the 3500HD SRW has a bigger axles than the 2500HD (and hence more GAWR - would need to check the stickers on a real truck as they never show that stuff online). But either way the GAWR on the front and rear of the truck does not always match the GVWR. You could easily be under both front and rear GAWR numbers and be 'over' the GVWR of your truck. Given that the axles are what carry the load to the ground along with the wheels and tires, the trucks is much more capable of a higher load than its stated GVWR. For instance my 2500HD has a GVWR of 11350#, front axle of 5600# and rear axle of 6600# which is 12,200#.

Tires and wheels also make a difference but all these trucks with the 20" rims come with identical tires and wheels that can handle the same weight. Primary difference is the yellow sticker on the door for the 2500HD trucks will usually list only 60psi front and 70psi rear (as mine does). The tires are rated up to 80psi and when they list a higher GAWR for the front and rear the yellow placard will have higher suggested PSI ratings for the tires. The tires on my truck @ 60psi can handle 3030# per tie (6060# total and hence a good margin over the 5600# GAWR on the front). The tires @ 70psi as suggested on my door sticker is 3375# per tire or 6750# total which is once again a good margin more than the stated GAWR of 6600#. Most 3500HD trucks are going to have higher GAWR front and rear and come with a placard that suggests 80psi all the way around, which can handle 3750# per tire or 7500# total which is a good margin more than the 7000# GAWR mentioned by the poster above on his truck. One reason when you jump in a 2500HD compared to a 3500HD truck at the dealer and feel the 3500HD rides way stiffer is a lot to do with the tires. When I had my 3500HD, I would routinely drop my tires down to 55psi for just normal daily driving and pump them back up to 80psi when I was towing the fiver. MASSIVE difference in how the truck drives with the lower tire pressures when its not loaded.

The frame on these trucks is exactly the same and certainly the front axles are. Its not clear if the rear axle on the 3500HD is actually a bigger axle but the ring gear is larger to handle pulling the heavier maximum towing loads. The tow hitch for these trucks is also EXACTLY the same on the 2500HD and 3500HD SRW trucks and I believe even the same on the 3500HD DRW trucks according to what I have seen from folks that work at GM. Its all the same hitch with 2.5" shank even on the 3500HD trucks (one reason I loved my old 3500HD over the F350 was not dealing with the dang 3" shank and double reducers!).

So clearly if the 2500HD SRW max tow package trucks and 3500HD trucks have the exact same hitch setup, and those trucks can handle 2150# on the 3500HD SRW and 3100# on the 3500HD DRW, I don't think my truck is gonna have any issues with a tongue weight > 1850# as long as the front and rear GAWR and GVWR are not exceeded. And even then the GVWR can be easily exceeded before you exceed the GAWR as in my case I could carry 850# more than my rated GVWR before I would get close to the GAWR front and rear (assuming it's well balanced) but if I was ever gonna tow that much I can just pump my tires up to 80psi and easily handle a much higher load.

Granted my truck has the smaller leaf spring package compared to the larger trucks, but that does not matter to me as I am not towing a fiver anymore so don't need to worry about 3000# of pin weight. And you can get helper springs if you really need them. In my case I have added 3000# Sumo Springs to the rear and 1800# Sumo Springs on the front just to level out the ride somehow when the trailer is attached (not a fan of airbags).

As it stands now my trailer only has a higher tongue weight when towing my trailer with no toys in the back (heading to the dealer for service or something). And I can easily make sure all the extra stuff I carry is loaded in the garage like normal to put it back behind the axles. But when all is said and done, I doubt having even a 2100# tongue weight on my truck and properly distributing the weight is gonna cause any problems especially if the GAWR and GVWR for the truck are not exceed and they are not. Just the tongue weight.
 
My understanding is that 10% is maximum tongue weight on the bumper hitch. A fifth wheel is directly over the rear axle and therefore directly tied to total payload rating.
 
My understanding is that 10% is maximum tongue weight on the bumper hitch. A fifth wheel is directly over the rear axle and therefore directly tied to total payload rating.
Tongue weight on a TT should be between 10-15%. Fifth wheel is ideal at around 20%, I believe truck manufacturers test them all the way down to 14% (?). More than 24-25% and you are putting a lot of unnecessary weight on the front of the trailer, and more weight to the truck.

Payload, is payload, no matter how it is put on the truck.
 
So what am I missing then? If the maximum tongue weight is only 1,850# for my truck, then really I can only tow up to a 12,333# trailer behind it if the tongue weight is up to 15% of the trailer weight.

The only thing I can think of is that this is for conventional towing WITHOUT any weight distribution. Is that how this works?

So my question is am I overloading the truck at that point, or am I good as long as I am fully distributing the weight forward correctly (getting the front wheels back close to their original location) and I am not surpassing the maximum payload capacity of the truck?
The answer to your first question above is yes. You will likely be limited by payload capacity first when towing a travel trailer as it should likely have a tongue weight of closer to 15% than the 10% mentioned in the specs from the truck manufacturer.

Second question answer, nope, that's for weight distribution with some caveats. Technically, the weight is still there, just moved around. So for planning purposes (ie, how big a trailer can I potentially buy) the tongue weight without distribution is what you would go by. In reality, some of that will be transferred back to the trailer with the weight distribution hitch so it wont count against your gvwr when you weigh the truck and trailer with the weight distribution engaged. Not a whole lot is moved back though.

Concerning your truck, if you are going over your gvwr with everything in it for a trip and your trailer attached and weight distribution hitch engaged, then you are overweight. It can be argued that as long as you aren't over either of the truck axle max ratings you should be fine even if over gvwr by some. You're still technically over weight for those who care or worry about such things.

A couple of points about where the manufacturers come up with their towing capacity ratings. They all use the same engeering standard test, J2807. You can look it up to find all the details, but a couple worth mentioning. First, they use a standard trailer that just happens to have a 10% tongue weight, so that's where that comes into play. Tow a trailer with a higher percentage and you can't tow as much. Second, part of the test is a pull from a stop on a steep standardized grade. The truck has to be able to pull the load for a set number of feet from a stop. This is why higher axle ratios (shorter gearing) are rated to tow more, even though the payload is the same (usually the limiting factor anyway).

Edit: Oops, just realized I just replied to a thread that was resurrected and I had already replied last year. Was going to just delete this post but decided to leave it, even though it's duplicating some stuff I already mentioned.
 
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The answer to your first question above is yes. You will likely be limited by payload capacity first when towing a travel trailer as it should likely have a tongue weight of closer to 15% than the 10% mentioned in the specs from the truck manufacturer.

Second question answer, nope, that's for weight distribution with some caveats. Technically, the weight is still there, just moved around. So for planning purposes (ie, how big a trailer can I potentially buy) the tongue weight without distribution is what you would go by. In reality, some of that will be transferred back to the trailer with the weight distribution hitch so it wont count against your gvwr when you weigh the truck and trailer with the weight distribution engaged. Not a whole lot is moved back though.

Concerning your truck, if you are going over your gvwr with everything in it for a trip and your trailer attached and weight distribution hitch engaged, then you are overweight. It can be argued that as long as you aren't over either of the truck axle max ratings you should be fine even if over gvwr by some. You're still technically over weight for those who care or worry about such things.

A couple of points about where the manufacturers come up with their towing capacity ratings. They all use the same engeering standard test, J2807. You can look it up to find all the details, but a couple worth mentioning. First, they use a standard trailer that just happens to have a 10% tongue weight, so that's where that comes into play. Tow a trailer with a higher percentage and you can't tow as much. Second, part of the test is a pull from a stop on a steep standardized grade. The truck has to be able to pull the load for a set number of feet from a stop. This is why higher axle ratios are rated to tow more, even though the payload is the same (usually the limiting factor anyway).

Edit: Oops, just realized I just replied to a thread that was resurrected and I had already replied last year. Was going to just delete this post but decided to leave it, even though it's duplicating some stuff I already mentioned.
This post is over a year old

Op has likely got his answers
 
As other's have posted...the primary numbers one should be concerned with are payload capacity of the tow vehicle (1500-3500 doesn't matter). All trucks seem to have the ability to tow MUCH more than the hitch weight. Our Chevy 1500 with tow pkg and Duramax 3.0 "can tow 13,000#", but with the High Country pkg and everything else added the payload is 1,514# according to the door sticker. I went with an Imagine 2600RB that when fully loaded (7,850#) should give us about 700# of payload inside the truck. Bottom line...a truck's tow capacity does not equal a GVWR of a trailer.
 
As other's have posted...the primary numbers one should be concerned with are payload capacity of the tow vehicle (1500-3500 doesn't matter). All trucks seem to have the ability to tow MUCH more than the hitch weight. Our Chevy 1500 with tow pkg and Duramax 3.0 "can tow 13,000#", but with the High Country pkg and everything else added the payload is 1,514# according to the door sticker. I went with an Imagine 2600RB that when fully loaded (7,850#) should give us about 700# of payload inside the truck. Bottom line...a truck's tow capacity does not equal a GVWR of a trailer.
This post is over a year old btw but the best course of action is for you to weigh your setup
My truck 2018 Sierra has more available payload ,door sticker, than yours and my smaller 2400bh has my truck almost to max

You will likely be over your gvwr fyi
 

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