Very UNHAPPY Camper

[mtpocket]

Well after our second trip the back recliner opened up and tore up the slide. The list of issues has been way to long for a new camper. Two broken dinette chairs, leaky drain valves, finish issues, lighting issues etc. If I could have my old camper back after two short weeks in a Grand Design I would take it. None of the locks for the lower compartments were functional. Big door with slam latch to access water and drain valves was bent upon delivery. The list goes on and on. We are up to over 20 things in one week. Had two issues with the old trailer upon delivery. I dont believe anyone at Grand design or the dealer went over this trailer before delivery.

 

[BBJonbo]

Really sorry to hear you are experiencing so many warranty issues. Our last RV was a Keystone and it had almost 50 issues in the 1st year. The dealer had it more than we did for the first 18 months. Once all the warranty issues had been addressed the RV was as good as any prior ones we owned. Prior to having the warranty items fixed it was our worst. Our best unit was Canadian made and it had zero defects and we owned it for 5 years and used it about 90 days a year. It got used a lot and was rock solid and high quality.

With our Keystone, we take partial blame ourselves as we had scheduled an RV trip with 4 other couples and our unit was late and our PDI was 3 days before the trip. Of the almost 50 issues, about 95% we caught on our 4 hour PDI that we performed. The dealer takes less than an hour for a PDI but we didn't sign the final papers until we completed our own thorough PDI. In hind sight, we should have rejected the RV or had them fix everything before payment. At that point we had only $5k down on a bill just over $65k. They surely would have been motivated to fix everything to our satisfaction. There were no major issues but a ton of minor issues that the manufacturer or dealer PDI should have caught and already dealt with.

Jump forward 8 years and we put ourselves in the same boat. Our 303 should arrive any day now but the dealer has a lot of after market add-ons to install and not sure when they will be ready. We have a trip planned for July 11th weekend with friends. I told my wife that if our PDI turns up too many issues then we will reject the RV until the repairs are done. I have forewarned our friends this time that there is a good chance we will have to miss out on the trip. Our new 303 was suppose to arrive last Friday which would have given the dealer w full 2 weeks for the add-ons and any thing they wished to repair from their PDI.

For our Keystone, most everything was caught during our thorough PDI but a small number of items were detected after taking ownership. For our 303, we won't make the same mistake and make final payment if the punch list is too large or there are major issues. We are not expecting major but the dealer may be surprised if we reject the RV over a handful of even minor issues. This time we plan to have most everything addressed prior to taking ownership. Again, we only have $5k down so the dealer will hopefully be motivated to address warranty issues caught during our PDI quickly so as to receive final payment. Time will tell if we stick to our guns.

We realize how annoying and inconvenient it can be to have a large punch list and warranty items so we feel your pain for sure. We also have had poor after sales service handling warranty work so our new strategy is fix it first then we will pay. My tolerance for warranty issues is extremely low this time round but my wife's is higher so we will see the day of our PDI what happens.

Hope you have warranty issues addressed in a timely manner and to your satisfaction on the first attempt to have issues repaired.

 

[mtpocket]

We dropped it off at the dealer today. It is apparently not as bad as it looks. They said they would have it ready and reduce our checklist by quite a few items. We shall see. If they do I will certainly post it. With all the campers we bought they take you in to do the paper work first. That wont happen again. We will go through it first and all items will be fixed before delivery. That way there not waiting for parts on my nickel. Maybe it will put a sense of urgency on a 20 dollar part or a big piece of sheet metal that's holding up a sale. That big piece of metal is due to GD apparently using an industrial impact wrench instead of a screw gun to assemble the trailer. It's a shame it has to be that way but it is. On houses you do a walk-thru before closing and this trailer cost more than my first house. This is a luxury item and something I can easily live without.

I guess there needs to be some kind of strap to hold the footrests in. I will have to create something. One selling feature was not having to move and strap furniture before traveling. Guess that is still a wish

 

[Bamaman]

The dealer I plan to buy from owns an adjacent campground with full hookups.

I plan to ask them to put the 5'ver on site in order for me to go through my long checklist. This includes completely filling up the black water and gray water tanks and checking out every electrical circuit, coax cable/television/radio and two air conditioning units. I also want to climb on the roof checking all the vents, etc. I plan to keep the trailer on site for 3 nights.

After the trailer is completely checked out, I'll pay.

I'm going to be taking the trailer to the Blue Ridge Mountains 300 miles from home. It's not going to be convenient or inexpensive to haul the unit 4 hours back to this dealership for minor repairs, so I want it to be as right as possible on front end.

 

[huntr70]

A good dealer would do a several hour walk through of the unit with you, before you ever sign the final paperwork.

Some things do take replacement parts, and it is what it is..... they don't come any faster whether it is a stock unit or a customers.

 

[Bamaman]

It's not enough to be taught how to deal with the systems on the RV, etc. You've got to live with one to really discover what's not working properly. And it'd be nice if it would rain--to test the roof and seals on sliders.

I'm very capable of doing many of my own RV repairs, however there are too many horror stories of RV's staying at dealerships more than in the owners' hands the first few months of ownership. It's up to dealers to check our their trailers better--prior to delivery.

I just want to be proactive with my trailer, and find any problems prior to purchase.

 

[Timon0x31]

Make your own rain, put a stay nozzle on a hose and point it straight up

 

[mburtsvt]

I find a lot of this a little disturbing. About five years ago, (before GD), I delivered RV to dealers all over the country. Every dealer would use a “punch list” form to report to the manufacture defects and discrepancies. This was used to report to the manufactures what needed to be fixed on the unit after delivery. The receiving dealer would look over several items to make sure they were in the units and in working order. I realize that the end used is the ultimate person who needs to be satisfied with their new units. I think a lot of the issues should, and may be addressed before the unit is on the lot for sale, but it seams that some of the smallest things are being over looked.

 

[2hams]

It sounds to me like we are hearing from folks who purchased from a dealer that didn't bother to inspect the unit. Our dealer even gave us a copy of the punch list they submitted; everything was minor (and they were as picky as if it were their own) and resolved before our delivery.

 

[mtpocket]

I guess I have a hard time placing full blame on the dealer. Should they have checked it better? Yes. Absolutely! But why are we so quick to excuse the manufacturer. If the guy installing the door sees its bent and it leaves the factory that way why put the responsibility on the dealer to catch it before it gets to the customer. Another trailer was delivered to the dealer after ours and the same door is bent so it's not a one off situation. Maybe there is so much profit for the selling dealer they assume the responsibility but to me that's wrong. Our dealer took pictures of everything we found and sent them to GD. The trailers shouldn't leave the factory like mine did.

If the dealer called me and said your trailers in but were waiting for a 20 foot section of sheet metal to replace, new recliner and dinette chairs, new refrigerator vent, the bottom black plastic is hanging down across the back and a flooring repair kit I would have told them to keep it. The responsibility lies with GD for the final product.

 

[mtpocket]

I said I will post the good so here it is. Stopped by the dealer today and although they haven't worked on it the parts are there. We asked if they would get everything done by next Tuesday as we need it back for a camping trip. They said considering the amount of work they doubted it would be completed by then. I said lets go ahead and make an appointment to drop it back off and they said when your trip is over drop it off and we will finish what we couldn't complete. I was expecting them to say a couple of weeks after we get back so when they said drop it off and they will get on whats left that's good. Apparently the dealer is trying which I appreciate. That builds loyalty to whatever brand they carry when its time for a new one.

Another plus for the dealer. We realized we left the back lights on and had already turned in the keys. They said they would take care of it. We stopped by there and the lights were off, battery fully charged and it wasnt plugged in. Proof they did what they said they were going to do. Had the battery been dead I would have been mad. It would have been easy for them to say don't worry about it we will charge the battery when we work on it and the customer will never know. To some no big deal, to me a big deal. I am very happy they did what they said, when they said.

 

[Rizzles]

mtpocket, I agree with you. A lot of the problems we have experienced with our unit are attributed to a lack of attention to detail and poor practices during assembly. Perhaps stepping up QA during the assembly process will help reduce some of the issues customers are experiencing.
This is our 3rd RV and because of that I expect to have minor problems which is a crazy mindset. I mean we just dropped a lot of $$$ into a product that I am expecting to have defects? Doesn't seem right, but this is the norm in the RV business based on past (and present) experience.
We have owned our 369RL for 2 months and below is a list of problems we have encountered:
1) Speaker covers in the bedroom missing (cosmetic)
2) O-ring on water filter housing missing (Caused water leak from housing assembly)
3) Paint on front cap is fading in two spots (cosmetic)
4) Dead bolt malfunction prevented key from fully engaging to unlock the door. This happened on our second trip and forced me to call a locksmith after hours and incur a $70.00 cost to gain entry into my brand new RV.
5) Main entry handrail foam is cut
6) Upper track of bathroom door is separating from the frame due to the lack of support screws. This is causing the door to sag.
7) Kitchen sink retaining clips separated from the counter. The retaining clips are mounted to a piece of plywood that is hot glued to the bottom of the counter. It looks like heat caused the glue to soften and the plywood fell into the kitchen drawer.
8) Dining table glass is bowed
9) Fresh water tank drain handle mechanism came unthreaded from the valve

These are the things that we are able to see and honestly I often worry about those that I can't. I've pulled the divider in the basement to check for leaks and general serviceability and have not encountered any issues. We have been through a few storms both towing and setup, and am happy to report that we have not had any leaks.
We really love the RV and thankfully have not had any major issues.
I've attached a few pics of the mentioned problems.

 

[Stuts]

Boy Gang, I think right now if I posted about my experiences since I took delivery, it would make your toes curl. I just got back from a long weekend and went to drop off my RV to deal with some more of my "Punch List" stuff. I had an appointment to do so and there shouldn't have been more than a days worth of work. They told me they couldn't have things done by Wednesday night/Thursday morning. I had a trip planned for the holiday weekend that I can't get a refund for so I left today with my RV and had to make another appt for mid next week.

Rizzles and mtpockets, I have your lists beat by A LOT! I'm not posting the details now as I want to calm down from the latest. I want to provide constructive feedback here and want to hear back from GD before I list out the things I've had happen. Hopefully this story will have a happy ending.

 

[Rizzles]

Stunts, I believe these forums are a great source of information not only for those who own a GD product, but for the company itself. Hopefully others check a few things on my list such as the door track, sink retainers, fresh water drain valve and are able to catch them before they cause further damage. I know our list is relatively minor and am thankful that we have not had any major issues.
Good luck and I hope that you are able to get resolution on your list.

 

[chris-TMO]

So a couple of things. 1) I agree with you completely. 2) I wrote a blog post along these lines: http://www.granddesignowners.com/forum/entry.php/29-The-state-of-the-RV-Industry. I am disappointed in many things with this camper. I still love it, but the shine has worn off. This is an issue with an industry, not just this company. It's just this company promised to be different. It's great to take care of problems after the fact, but I'd much rather you do it right to begin with.
Ct..

 

[Boomer]

I agree with you Chris. We own a Reflection 303 and have experienced several major problems as well as numerous smaller nagging issues. I think that the whole quality issue is a cost of manufacturing problem. Quality cost time which costs money. If you build with quality as the number one requirement all of the delivery issues would go away. There will always be problems created by bouncing these units down the road. I spent 25 years in the semiconductor industry which was forced into a zero defect culture by competition from Japan, the auto industry went through the same transformation due to competition from Japan. Until there is a formidable competitor nothing much will change other than the window dressing. These as all companies are profit driven and have not figured out the cost of after sales support.

 

[mtpocket]

Stuts
Why wait to post the issues? You may save someone troubles by posting them so we can minimize damage or preventing it all together. Do you believe the service you receive could be impacted by posting it here? I would hope that wouldn't make a difference.

Chris
Well said and your blog is right on. Also agree with do it right at the factory instead of letting the dealer and more importantly the customer handle it. The guy missing speaker covers really shines the light. Are they not at least doing a walk through before sending these down the road? Somebody should have a checklist before releasing a trailer for shipment.

We spent a little time with a guy we met with a new solitude. Many of our issues are the same. In my industry the manufacturer releases Product Correction Notices. When an issue is discovered the customers are notified and the fix recommended by the manufacturer is spelled out. I am not referring to recalls where there is a danger to life, just issues like leaking showers, bent doors, bad tabletops, defective furniture etc. Is there such a thing in the RV industry? If so where do I look? I guess we kind of do it here but to often its us fixing issues and bringing them to every ones attention. The manufacturer has the best record of where the issues are due to warranty claim volumes. Publish the problems and fixes. I think I know why RV manufacturers don't

 

[Just us 2]

After reading all the stuff about our new trailer, it makes me wonder what we bought. We just bought a new F250 and a new 293 so we are looking at around $90,000. That is a lot for a hobby. We enjoy traveling and like the idea of our bed, our shower, our living area and being able to cook when need be.

I was in the luxury car business most of my career. If one of our cars, some less then what we paid, had these kind of problems, it would have been a nightmare. This is our second 5th wheel and our last one was a Forest River. We really liked it, only a few problems at first, then 70,000 miles and all was good. We had planned to buy a bigger one but found the GD Reflection. It was what we wanted and this and other forums liked it. So far we have had electrical problems, door problems and if you read our black tank issues you know about that. So far we haven't traveled too much in it but are heading out for a two week journey. I hope all goes well.

If the RV industry doesn't shape up, people will spend their money else were, look at Harley-Davidson. A few years ago you couldn't buy one they were leaving the showroom floor so fast. Now you can get a good deal on one. We bought the cheaper GD 5th wheel and it was still big cash. I could have bought a Corvette and had a good warranty. O'well we will see if we got a good one or not.

Just us 2

 

[mtpocket]

The dealer fixed most of the issues. The scratch on the awning and the many on the ladder were touched up. I can see everyone of the scratches because the paint isn't exact. Dealer said they could replace both but said if the did in their experience we might be asking for more trouble as these items aren't really made to be put off and on to many times. While I somewhat agree it's disappointing to have to accept these because of carelessness at GD. The straightened out the chairs and they look nice. Did good work. Replaced the messed up light above the sink but now there noticeably different colors. There going to fix that as they had a few on hand due to others with defects. The tv was put in too tight or just cheap because it was crooked due to the back plastic screw inserts broken. Thanks to the dealer they went across the street to best buy and put an insignia tv in it. No more sound bar pops. Imagine that. Very grateful to the dealer for taking care of that quickly. As we were packing up we found the wood strip that runs vertically along the entry door has no nails in the lower four feet. Need to see who is afraid to bend over with a nail gun. Overall the dealer has gone above and beyond and I am happy with their work. GD quality continues to not meet expectations. There are other issues but would take to long to spell them all out and most are cosmetic. Already have another trip to the dealer scheduled. At this point I may just schedule an appointment the first of every month. Nothing to do but laugh I guess and raise a glass of my favorite spirits.

 

[westie0506]

mtpocket - following your list...what flooring issue requires a flooring repair kit?