Will attempts to ban natural gas appliances include propane ?

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Yeah, propane will be around for a long time to come. Although I do wonder how they'll make those on-demand water heaters work with all electric. :)

Propane will probably be around for a reasonably long time, however access may be limited to Delivery Customers only. Once they eliminate portable tanks for BBQs RVers will find it harder and harder to find Portable tanks or re-fill stations.
 
Tom T...

Your not really ranting. All you said is true. I was just trying to point out that the problem that the studies have is that they have not addressed propane directly... so the propane advocates say what they will. And frankly for rural dwellers like myself, propane is the cleanest and cheapest source of heat. I am rural and feel that I happen to be stuck in the middle. Electricity where I live is expensive and so are the electric heat pumps NY is advocating, so I am "stuck" with propane in my 10 year old home, which is modern and clean compared to so many of my rural neighbors...

There are homes around me that still heat with wood... and even coal!!! MY neighbor is one of them. A "modern" coal furnace still stinks for god's sake. Why does he still do this?/// 'Because its cheap and so is he. I can't stand the smell, but b/c he's rural he gets away with it.

And the drive to my job on cold still mornings is thru a valley loaded with wood burners... I can barely breath as I drive thru it unless I turn off the air intake in my truck.

I'd like all carbon fuels to go away.... the problem is that doing so is expensive, and I am not sure how long it will take for electricity generation to also be carbon free..... NY is subsidizing a "local" nuclear plant. I am not sure that's a great idea... cause its old. But it is carbon free!

I think that the regulations will not differentiate between Natural Gas and Propane Gas. "Gas is BAD!" Will be the clarion call and Propane will be right behind Natural Gas.

The good news is that Heat Pumps are 300% efficient and they are getting better able to extract heat from colder and colder weather. Additionally, "Ground Source" heat pumps do not need to rely on the weather because they have a buried "Ground Loop" that extracts heat from the earth in the winter and cold in the summer. If you live in a rural area, installation is simplified, because, you can simply dig a wide trench and lay the loop horizontally in the trench, then bury it instead of needing to drill down 300 - 500 feet to install a vertical loop.

If I were living out in the "Country" I would definitely be investing in a ground mount Solar system along with battery storage to eliminate my reliance on the power company. I would also (probably/most likely) not connect it to the grid. I would use a manual transfer switch to disconnect various appliances from the Electrical panel and run them completely "Off Grid". The first appliance I would switch off is my climate control system (theoretically a Ground Source Heat Pump). I would then add additional appliances as I grew my Solar and Battery Storage system capabilities.

The nice thing about a Ground Mount Solar and Battery storage system that is not connected to the grid is that it can not be regulated by the power company. Another nice thing is that you can build it and expand it as funds become available, just plan for the final system so you are not replacing components as you grow. If you check out "Projects with Everyday Dave" on YouTube, you can watch how he installed his ground mounted Solar system and watch a few of his followup videos where he analyzes steps he could have taken to make his project even more cost effective.
 
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Interesting observation. An air conditioner (used for cooling) is already a heat pump (moves heat from inside to outside using the compression and expansion of a working fluid, or gas), so no more gains are available on the cooling side other than tiny gains in efficiency from newer compressor motors, etc. Being able to reverse the heat flow for heating (moving heat from outside to inside - what we commonly call a "heat pump" even though an AC only unit is a heat pump already) is great technology. According to the Dept. of Energy, efficiencies up to 300%, in the best cases, may be available. That means that for an input of 7,000 Btus of electricity, you could move 21,000 Btus of heat into your RV.

Even if you had to pay for the electricity at the RV park, it would be substantially cheaper than buying propane. If you have a good sized solar system, it would be free, ignoring the initial cost of the solar system.

Why did I pick 7,000 Btus before? Well, many larger RVs have 35,000 BTU/hr propane furnaces. Assuming a likely 60% efficiency, that furnace can put 21,000 Btus into the RV in an hour. To replace that with a heat pump with 300% electric efficiency would require 7,000 Btu/hr of electricity. That hour of electricity would use 171 ah of 12v battery storage power (7,000 Btus / 3412 Btus/kwh = 2.05 kwh = 2,050 wh / 12v = 171 ah).

We recently stayed in southwestern Utah. It got down to or below freezing each night. We had shore power so the only thing we used propane for was heating. Based on propane fill frequency, we used about 160,000 Btus/day, all at night. At 60% efficiency, we put 96,000 Btus of propane heat into the RV each day. Using a 300% efficient air source heat pump would require 32,000 Btus of electricity or 781 ah of battery storage at 12v, each night, just for air heating alone. We also ran the electric fireplace and a small electric oil-filled heater a lot so I am significantly understating the battery storage that would be required to replace propane if we had used propane for all the heating.

If you have a power hookup, all this in irrelevant. In fact, I plan to install an electric heat option to our furnace to eliminate the use of propane when hooked up. If you are boondocking in colder weather, you would need a good sized battery bank, particularly if you have any overcast days. Also if you are bookdocking, you would have to add in hot water, refrigerator, lights, cooking, and all other power uses into your power consumption. Needing a 2,000 ah battery bank would not be unreasonable for an all electric RV in a cool but sunny climate. An obvious work-around to the overcast day problem would be a good sized backup generator, either gas or propane (Oops!).

Water heating as a by-product of cooling the RV is a great idea. Water heating as a by-product of heating the interior won't gain you anything as there is no waste heat available. A Btu into the incoming cold water will be one Btu less into the interior air.

A lot of RVers probably don't boondock in cold weather so I think there are a lot of cases where an all electric RV might work, ignoring the cost. It wouldn't work for us.

Like I said, currently you can eliminate all of your need for Propane except for Heating and Hot Water. Eventually, Hopefully, Maybe Someday, RV manufacturers will start to smarten up about the need for energy efficiency in RVs (RV Furnaces are all Power Pigs) and we will get higher efficiency A/C units that are also designed as Heat Pumps. Until then, the best you can do is strap a "Mini Split" unit onto your back bumper.
 
Like I said, currently you can eliminate all of your need for Propane except for Heating and Hot Water. Eventually, Hopefully, Maybe Someday, RV manufacturers will start to smarten up about the need for energy efficiency in RVs (RV Furnaces are all Power Pigs) and we will get higher efficiency A/C units that are also designed as Heat Pumps. Until then, the best you can do is strap a "Mini Split" unit onto your back bumper.
Or "Worry Less" and "Camp More". Life's too short for all the "What If's" to fret over.
 
I'm too old to care about gas or no gas. By the time anything gets passed I'll more than likely be done camping anyways. For the younger gen, well they seem to adapt to change pretty easy.
 
Folks - it's OK to have the discussion. But you can't bring politics or political views into it here on this forum. Thanks.

We removed some political names form one or more of the early posts on this and I just removed another than mentioned political names/views and references to articles related to politics/political views.
 
Good news this AM in WSJournal. The agency looking into this issue stated Propane is not involved, and for natural gas stoves its more about safety standards, such as proving for better ventilation.
 
By the way, I've wanted to see upstate NY for a long time. That area, particularly the Finger Lakes and Lake Champlain, is on our list in the next several years.

We live on Skaneateles on a shaded north facing lakeside lot with a steep slope behind us. While it's beautiful and cool in the summer, it is usually cold and really snowy in winter (although this winter is an exception)!

Strongly suggest checking out NY's numerous state park campgrounds, but especially Letchworth State Park, which has been ranked as the best state park in the country numerous times by numerous publications. If you love hiking, waterfalls and lakes, the Finger Lakes have it. You want some urban conveniences and fun too... hit the Ithaca NY area. The season is May 1 thru October 31, peak is July and August. In winter we have skiing locally, and within 3-4 hours is Whiteface and Gore. Upstate NY is bigger than it looks on the map. It can be 7-9 hours from the PA border south west of Buffalo thru the Catskills to NY City, and that doesn't include any of the "North Country", which is north of Syracuse, Utica and Albany (aka the Adirondacks). We've had friends stay up here for a month and not see it all. Although I've skied all the 3,500 feet of vertical on Whiteface Mt, I still gotta take the drive up the backside some summer.
 
Well, you can put to rest all the FUD about banning propane/natural gas. The guy who proposed it has backed waaaaaaaaaaaaay off and now says we should just educate people on the "dangers". All this fuss and foofaraw over nothing...again.
 
Well, you can put to rest all the FUD about banning propane/natural gas. The guy who proposed it has backed waaaaaaaaaaaaay off and now says we should just educate people on the "dangers". All this fuss and foofaraw over nothing...again.

Psst, dont tell my DW. I was using this story as an excuse to trade in my house gas BBQ for a larger smoker and a charcoal BBQ.
 
As a chemical engineer, I can't believe all the bad information out there on this topic. But of course this is typical and what we've come to expect! Tom T did a great job explaining the correct information. Here is one statement from an energy company (you would think is a reliable source) that sells propane:

"Propane is clean burning and non-toxic or damaging to the environment, which makes it a “green fuel”. Natural gas is a carbon product and a greenhouse gas which is very damaging to the environment. Want to reduce your carbon footprint? Choose Propane."

I love how they point out that natural gas is a carbon product, so I guess that means propane is not! Idiots!
 
This non-sense was on the Canadian news as well.......I watched it in disbelief, shook my head......let out a big [text removed].....then turned it off.
 
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And then there is this article from the NY Times. The propane industry is using money from customers bills (separately itemized on bills in my state) to lobby for propane use and against electrification.

And I've always wondered what the safety fee was really for.

Look, I am not really a fan of propane, we use it in our home because the choices were limited to all electric or partial electric (lights, water pumps, refrigeration and appliances) plus some combination of coal, oil, or wood for heating, cooking, dryer, generator, and hot water. We don't have air conditioning and its not needed. Electricity was and remains the least reliable and most expensive (thanks to high rates, being at the end of the electric line, and a site that is too shady for solar). A windmill can only capture wind from the north. So we use propane for nearly everything but the electric water pumps, lights and refrigeration.

If propane were banned, I'd probably need to buy an expensive and huge battery storage system to pump water into our house and up to the septic field when the power is out, plus a wood or oil fired boiler for heat and hot water!!! An electric heat pump for hot water and heating would require a massive investment of between $10,000 to $15,000 and leave us vulnerable to frequent power outages and high rates. Our small permanent propane generator would have to be replaced by a large battery storage system, which would still be dependent on the expensive grid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/11/...lFHodhbvU8t1T0PLDFM2Y0lDiBsIxU&smid=share-url
 
Even the basic of residential household stoves, propane or natural gas could easily be retrofitted with a gas solenoid that only opened after verification of an operating exhaust fan... possibly via a sail switch similar to an RV furnace.
 
I certainly hope you are correct! As we also live upstate NY! And yes my electric bill is in access of 175.00 a month!
See ya down the road…..
 
I predict this topic will become politcal, hope not.

I think the real issue here is people not using proper ventilation while using gas type of stoves. Propane or natural gas water heaters, when installed correctly are vented to outside the house, but some people either don't know or don't care to run some type of ventilation while using a gas stove. Maybe education is the right answer vice a mandate. Mandates and laws can't solve everything.

Proper ventilation is the problem?
Huh?
 
Proper ventilation is the problem?
Huh?
One of the articles I read related to this proposed ban was due to the health issues caused by use of the gas stoves. If people aren't ventilating the space, then sure, there could be some problems. I was always taught to use the vent fan when running a gas stove, not sure that everyone follows this practice.
 
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