Winter Camping

[ZuriHagel]

I wanted to get some recommendations on Winter Camping. I have a 22MLE TT with the 4 seasons options which means the underbelly is insulated.

We don’t get very cold weather in the Pacific Northwest and I bought the camper to use year round. There are cold spells and one is coming where it will be in the 20’s to teens.

While in my driveway I have a 12 amp oil heater in the rig and it keeps it room temperature and I keep the water heater and frig on with electric. I keep the gas set at 60 or so in case the oil heater can’t keep up. I keep the slide closed too and I often go there to watch TV.

I don’t use the city water, I keep the tank partially filled with water so it doesn’t freeze and use the gravity feed to do that. I leave the water pump off unless I use it and it is in the cabin.

My worry is the insulated area where the tanks and pex run. It says that area is vented to the cabin so I’m guessing the temp in there stays above freezing if the room temp is in the high 60’s - anyone know?

Also I thought about regular frost king heat tape for the exposed plastic pipes under the camper. Those are the sewer and gray water valves in particular.

I think the low point drains and the fresh water drain can be left as is and maybe a hair dryer if they are frozen to drain?

Looking for some experience here

Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jkwilson]

Your understanding that the underbelly is insulated is, at best, exaggerated. Maybe a sheet of foil on top of the coroplast.

Your furnace needs to run, regardless of how warm it is in the living area. It circulates warm air within the underbelly.

 

[ZuriHagel]

Your understanding that the underbelly is insulated is, at best, exaggerated. Maybe a sheet of foil on top of the coroplast.

Your furnace needs to run, regardless of how warm it is in the living area. It circulates warm air within the underbelly.

Do you know if the belly is vented to the cabin or not, for example using a fan to blow warm air through the vent that leads to the bed? I was thinking it’s likely vented as it runs from the back of the rig to the front.

I’m only going on the claims of GDRV. It does look like blown in foam insulation to me but I’m just looking at where the the holes come in from below. Do you have the 4 seasons on your rig?

I’m also new to the trailer - so I didn’t mean to exaggerate … I thought perhaps the claims are exaggerated but they are not mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ZuriHagel]

Do you know if the belly is vented to the cabin or not, for example using a fan to blow warm air through the vent that leads to the bed? I was thinking it’s likely vented as it runs from the back of the rig to the front.

I’m only going on the claims of GDRV. It does look like blown in foam insulation to me but I’m just looking at where the the holes come in from below. Do you have the 4 seasons on your rig?

I’m also new to the trailer - so I didn’t mean to exaggerate … I thought perhaps the claims are exaggerated but they are not mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The heater has a squirrel fan that takes air from the cabin and circulates it over the burner tubes. The specs say it’s a dedicated duct.

I should have thought of that before posting. That’s how the heater worked in my pop up except it needed to be on.

My rig has a fan mode, so I think it will circulate the heated cabin air to the underbelly from the intake which I believe is on top of the furnace under the sink.

Not ideal to run the furnace fan all the time. I think I’ll get a temperature sensor for down there so I know for sure during cold weather.

I think blocking the vents in the cabin will increase the air flow to the underbelly … anyway this post may be more appropriate for the heating forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Redapple63]

Howdy,

The four season thing is all marketing. The underbelly is enclosed, which is a great thing for keeping critters out. Most of these don’t have any real insulation on the, just a foil type material which may add a bit of r value, but very little.

The underbelly is heated by the heater, so if you wish to prevent water lines from freezing you definitely need to run the heat.

Some on this forum have undertaken the task of removing the chloroplast (underbelly membrane) to do things like insulate water lines and clean up electrical bundles. They have also taken the time to bring the water lines closer up to the floor so they don’t just lay on the foil, and they have also added insulation. This is a big job.

Your best bet is to winterize the water system and only use it for three seasons. You could certainly depend on the oil fired heater to keep the cabin warm with no worry of the water lines. If you want or have to have the water available, you will need to run the heat.

Thanks,
Bill

 

[huntindog]

Howdy,

The four season thing is all marketing. The underbelly is enclosed, which is a great thing for keeping critters out. Most of these don’t have any real insulation on the, just a foil type material which may add a bit of r value, but very little.

The underbelly is heated by the heater, so if you wish to prevent water lines from freezing you definitely need to run the heat.

Some on this forum have undertaken the task of removing the chloroplast (underbelly membrane) to do things like insulate water lines and clean up electrical bundles. They have also taken the time to bring the water lines closer up to the floor so they don’t just lay on the foil, and they have also added insulation. This is a big job.

Your best bet is to winterize the water system and only use it for three seasons. You could certainly depend on the oil fired heater to keep the cabin warm with no worry of the water lines. If you want or have to have the water available, you will need to run the heat.

Thanks,
Bill

I have done all of that and more to improve cold weather use. And it sure is a big job.. I will say though that my Momentum was actually insulated pretty well. I had to go into the underbelly for another reason, and did not like all of that fiberglass insulation though. They install it while the frame is upside down, and gravity is helping them.... As an owner trying to repair/ upgrade etc. it will never be upside down and will be falling all over the place So I installed ridgid insulation boards cut to fit. Now any time I need to go into it, it is easy. While I was at it, I installed as much as would fit. This makes a very noticeable difference. But it sure isn't a weekend project... Also, since it is such a big job I used the best type there is. Polyisocronate, 1" equals R6.5. I have a MINIMUM of 2" and in most areas a lot more. It is the same amount of work whether one uses the cheap stuff or the good stuff.

 

[ZuriHagel]

Howdy,

The four season thing is all marketing. The underbelly is enclosed, which is a great thing for keeping critters out. Most of these don’t have any real insulation on the, just a foil type material which may add a bit of r value, but very little.

The underbelly is heated by the heater, so if you wish to prevent water lines from freezing you definitely need to run the heat.

Some on this forum have undertaken the task of removing the chloroplast (underbelly membrane) to do things like insulate water lines and clean up electrical bundles. They have also taken the time to bring the water lines closer up to the floor so they don’t just lay on the foil, and they have also added insulation. This is a big job.

Your best bet is to winterize the water system and only use it for three seasons. You could certainly depend on the oil fired heater to keep the cabin warm with no worry of the water lines. If you want or have to have the water available, you will need to run the heat.

Thanks,
Bill

I’m going to see how the fan mode works and where the duct goes off the suburban heater. I’m hoping that running the fan will draw enough cabin air to keep things from freezing without running the furnace. Also having the hot water heater on should provide some heat in the water lines.

Another idea would be to put an in line duct fan on the underbelly run that draws a lot of air for that one line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[huntindog]

I’m going to see how the fan mode works and where the duct goes off the suburban heater. I’m hoping that running the fan will draw enough cabin air to keep things from freezing without running the furnace. Also having the hot water heater on should provide some heat in the water lines.

Another idea would be to put an in line duct fan on the underbelly run that draws a lot of air for that one line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Remember a few old sayings: here is no such thing as a free lunch:You can't get something for nothing, and: You can't have your cake and eat it too.
They all apply to this idea. Trying heat the underbelly with 60 degree air will fall far short of the BTUs needed to prevent freezeups, AND that 60 degree air you are sending to the underbelly will be replaced in the living area with air far colder than 60 degrees. The oil filled heater does not produce enough BTUs to keep up, so the living area air will start to drop below 60 degrees. Soon you would be pumping 55 then 50, 45 etc. into the underbelly.
The inline fan idea would just speeed the process up.

It is a losing battle. I cold weather camp a lot. You just have to face the fact that heating an RV in cold weather will consume a LOT of energy to produce the BTUs needed.

 

[Second Chance]

I’m going to see how the fan mode works and where the duct goes off the suburban heater. I’m hoping that running the fan will draw enough cabin air to keep things from freezing without running the furnace. Also having the hot water heater on should provide some heat in the water lines.

Another idea would be to put an in line duct fan on the underbelly run that draws a lot of air for that one line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The "Fan Mode" is for the air conditioner only - has nothing to do with the furnace. With your trailer, there is basically no way around running the main furnace to keep the underbelly heated. Be extremely careful about running other heaters such as an electric fireplace or portable electric heaters (or your oil heater) inside. Those will keep the main furnace from cycling and you'll end up with frozen water lines. If you want a better understanding of how the Imagines are put together, take a look here:

https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2022/travel-trailer/imagine/construction

As others have said, the "Four Seasons Package" is a marketing gimmick.

Rob

 

[ZuriHagel]

The "Fan Mode" is for the air conditioner only - has nothing to do with the furnace. With your trailer, there is basically no way around running the main furnace to keep the underbelly heated. Be extremely careful about running other heaters such as an electric fireplace or portable electric heaters (or your oil heater) inside. Those will keep the main furnace from cycling and you'll end up with frozen water lines. If you want a better understanding of how the Imagines are put together, take a look here:

https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2022/travel-trailer/imagine/construction

As others have said, the "Four Seasons Package" is a marketing gimmick.

Rob

It is the AC only. I use the furnace fan in the house to circulate air when I heat with wood.

I looked at the ducting and there is no way around this, either no water in the lines or running the furnace the whole time.

The 22MLE is small with the slide in so the oil heater works well for me but you all are correct it’s just not hot enough to keep the lines from freezing if the underbelly needs forced hot air from the heater.

My question would be no water in the lines is enough if the cabin is heated of have to winterize it every time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Redapple63]

It is the AC only. I use the furnace fan in the house to circulate air when I heat with wood.

I looked at the ducting and there is no way around this, either no water in the lines or running the furnace the whole time.

The 22MLE is small with the slide in so the oil heater works well for me but you all are correct it’s just not hot enough to keep the lines from freezing if the underbelly needs forced hot air from the heater.

My question would be no water in the lines is enough if the cabin is heated of have to winterize it every time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m going to give you my standard Systems Engineering answer…it depends.

What does that mean, I am willing to bet that unless it is below freezing for more than 8 or so hours at a time, just blowing out the lines is probably ok, especially is it is only for a couple of days.

I never use the pink stuff, just blow out the lines, but where I live it only goes below freezing at night.

I think you will be ok just blowing out the lines, drain from low points and drain the water heater.

Bill

 

[Second Chance]

My question would be no water in the lines is enough if the cabin is heated of have to winterize it every time?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That depends on temps and exposure (time below freezing, wind, etc.). The safest thing to do would be to blow the lines with a compressor, run the pump dry, and pour a little anti-freeze in the traps. On your trailer, that should take about 15 minutes each time.

Rob

 

[ZuriHagel]

I’m going to give you my standard Systems Engineering answer…it depends.

What does that mean, I am willing to bet that unless it is below freezing for more than 8 or so hours at a time, just blowing out the lines is probably ok, especially is it is only for a couple of days.

I never use the pink stuff, just blow out the lines, but where I live it only goes below freezing at night.

I think you will be ok just blowing out the lines, drain from low points and drain the water heater.

Bill

Thanks Bill.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ZuriHagel]

That depends on temps and exposure (time below freezing, wind, etc.). The safest thing to do would be to blow the lines with a compressor, run the pump dry, and pour a little anti-freeze in the traps. On your trailer, that should take about 15 minutes each time.

Rob

How do you blow the lines? Through the winterization line into the pump?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Redapple63]

How do you blow the lines? Through the winterization line into the pump?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is what I use

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083LP8GL...abc_HVXVKV8KF1AG9D2PKZVX?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks,
Bill

 

[ZuriHagel]

This is what I use

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083LP8GL...abc_HVXVKV8KF1AG9D2PKZVX?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks,
Bill

Awesome …

https://youtu.be/yaxKIKGRdIo

Here is a great video that summarizes how to winterize with the blow out method.

Thanks everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Franktafl]

This is what I use

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083LP8GL...abc_HVXVKV8KF1AG9D2PKZVX?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks,
Bill

Make sure you use one of these…

Preciva Air Compressor Pressure Regulator with Dial Gauge, 0-175 PSI Air Gauge for Air Compressor and Air Tools (Four Way Valve).

Keep the air pressure lower than the water pressure and you will not have issues.

 

[ZuriHagel]

I did, I filled the pressure tank to 45 let it drop to 40. The adapter I got has a bike valve on one side.

The whole conversation started with having the gas heater on and morphed into you can’t have water in the rig without it even if the cabin is 70 degrees.

This is what I did since I keep the cabin heated with AC oil heater.

So I drained everything using gravity. I blew the fresh water line with compressed air, blew the black water tank line same. Water was in the both for sure, I could hear it or see it come out of the fresh water tank.

I put a small space heater I use for my boat into the cargo bay.

I didn’t bother blowing all the faucets thru the city water valve because that space and the cabinets are heated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sande005]

I wanted to get some recommendations on Winter Camping. I have a 22MLE TT with the 4 seasons options which means the underbelly is insulated.

We don’t get very cold weather in the Pacific Northwest and I bought the camper to use year round. There are cold spells and one is coming where it will be in the 20’s to teens.

While in my driveway I have a 12 amp oil heater in the rig and it keeps it room temperature and I keep the water heater and frig on with electric. I keep the gas set at 60 or so in case the oil heater can’t keep up. I keep the slide closed too and I often go there to watch TV.

I don’t use the city water, I keep the tank partially filled with water so it doesn’t freeze and use the gravity feed to do that. I leave the water pump off unless I use it and it is in the cabin.

My worry is the insulated area where the tanks and pex run. It says that area is vented to the cabin so I’m guessing the temp in there stays above freezing if the room temp is in the high 60’s - anyone know?

Also I thought about regular frost king heat tape for the exposed plastic pipes under the camper. Those are the sewer and gray water valves in particular.

I think the low point drains and the fresh water drain can be left as is and maybe a hair dryer if they are frozen to drain?

Looking for some experience here

Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You didn't mention how mobile you want to be. If you'll be in a spot for a few days or more, explore the options for side skirting to enclose the underside of the trailer. If you have power, you may want to then think about heat options underneath the trailer to augment that coming from the furnace. Lots of possibilities for DIY skirting out on the web, from simple foam boards to fancy panels that break down into a stack to make it easier to setup/take down if you want to be a bit more mobile.

 

[ZuriHagel]

You didn't mention how mobile you want to be. If you'll be in a spot for a few days or more, explore the options for side skirting to enclose the underside of the trailer. If you have power, you may want to then think about heat options underneath the trailer to augment that coming from the furnace. Lots of possibilities for DIY skirting out on the web, from simple foam boards to fancy panels that break down into a stack to make it easier to setup/take down if you want to be a bit more mobile.

I saw that on a YouTube about skirting with a heater under there. It’s what I would do if we really camped for long periods because you could use it for storage as well.

My latest thought put a t-connection in the heater conduit run going to the belly and use an inline fan like this that would install under the kitchen sink in my case.

https://vivosun.com/products/vivosu...-with-variable-speed-controller-for-grow-tent

This way it’ll function like if you had fan option control for the gas heater.

The design flaw on the winter protection is no fan always on mode for the gas heater so you can use supplemental heat.

But I can’t really call it a flaw until I know for sure the ambient temps in the cabin don’t heat it enough … I’ll take some temp readings with a FLIR through the toilet to see what the bottom of the tank reads …

I‘m also going to check the wiring on the Suburban Heater if it does have a fan mode that was not utilized … good possibility because the fan switch turns on the heater when there is enough air so it can’t be too hard to engineer fan only.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk